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Results from: Answers, Notes On or After: Tue 11/18/14 ordered by Date
Hi Doc. I am also of the belief that Christ was the image of God when He created Adam/man. We are being conformed into the image of Christ, not Adam (Rom. 8:29). It is God that makes us holy and nothing we do. Our justification is in our salvation that because of Christ God declares us "Not Guilty!" of transgressing His Law(s). And now as a believer who has been atoned and justified, the "All Scripture" Paul spoke of in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 includes The Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. Imaging that. When unatoned it was the Law that condemned us, but now as atoned beings in Christ it is the Law that God now uses to "instruct us in righteousness, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, etc.
Yes, you are correct, by definition there cannot nor could be a second God.
The Law reveals our need. From the very first command given by God to the very last, it all reveals that every single human being -- all men everywhere and everywhen -- have fallen short of the standard that He set (Isaiah 53:6; Jeremiah Romans 3:10-19; etc.). It is even worse than that, though, because our individual sins (by commission or omission) prove that we concur in our rebellion in Adam.
If we want to see a clear picture of what it means to actually hit the mark, all we must do is look at the Lord Jesus Christ. In Him we see all righteousness demonstrated wholly and entirely (2 Corinthians 5:21).
I don't confuse "hell/hades" with the Lake of Fire, which is why I spell "hell" with the quotation marks because usually is understood that way by others as the eternal place. To me "hell" is only the grave, the place of "unseen" as defined by Strong's.
When a believer dies post-cross their soul/spirit go to be with God hid in Christ.
I prefer to see the story of Lazarus and the rich man as a true story, not a parable as Jesus uses proper names.
Let us not clutter up the discussion with Purgatory or the false teaching that the cross was not sufficient. Let us stick to fact.
First and foremost don't confuss the name Hell with the final destination of the unrightous dead.
Hades/Hell is not the Lake of Fire, a place of punishment (since there has been no judgement yet). It is the holding place of the dead.
Luke 16:19-31 clearly describes this places as having two sections a hot dry place and Abraham's bosom or paradise. That can not be disputed.
Eph 4:8 clearly tells us Jesus decended and lead captive captivity.
To be in captivity you must be held, it is speaking of the captivity of death. Since Jesus overcome death He lead captive those held by death to Heaven.
These verse more fully explain this Ephesians 4:9-10 (NASB)
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
If Christ never descended into Hell how did He lead captive, captivity?
The Apostles Creed which many believe to have been originally constructed by the Apostles and know to have formally existed in written form as early as 390 AD clearly states Christ descended into Hell
No Jesus did not experience punishment, torture, or need to do any more in Hell to secure our salvation but Jesus did need to present Himself as the Messiah that the righteous dead had been waiting for, and free them from the deaths hold over them. Just as we are free of it today, so that upon death those of us that are in Christ go directly into His presence, in Heaven.
That is an interesting question. Perhaps it is lightly touched upon in the parable of Lazarus and Dives (Luke 16:19-31). Using a parable in that fashion, however, tends to result in two significant problems: (1) it teaches a poor parabolic exegetical practice; and (2) it impedes the more knowledgable exegete from being open to the point you are making.
Relative to the first item: Remember that parables teach a single point and are addressed to a single person or group. Our Lord's parable of Lazarus and Dives was not an attempt to delve into the interim state of man. Rather it was to address the error of the Pharisees to whom he was speaking, describing them as "those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God." (Luke 16:15b).
Relative to the second item: The horrors of the eternal death is referenced directly by our Lord when he sites Isaiah: "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind" (Isaiah 66:24 NASB). That passage is sited directly in Mark 9:44-49; Revelation 14:11; and, indirectly, in Matthew 3:12.
By the way, Jonathan Edwards made your point quite vividly in a sermon he preached in Enfield, Connecticut on July 8, 1741, entitled "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." It is very much worth the read. He affirms your point in words that cause the listener to almost smell the stench of Hell itself, if that were possible.
PS There is a convention in the Study Bible Forum to post as questions only those things that are directed to the forum as a whole. When responding to a post by another person, simply mark it as a note.
Let's not forget the lesson in the story of the Lazarus and the rich man.
Luke 16:30-31 (KJV)
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
They and we have the Scriptures. When Jesus died they had the Hebrew Scriptures and no one, according to Jesus, will be persuaded if one rose from the dead.
Today, this rings true...Jesus rose from the dead and no one is persuaded. This, incidentally, is why it requires God to make the first move upon an individual for as Jesus said in John 3:19-20
John 3:19-20 (KJV)
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Because of the BONDAGE of sin upon a person this prevents them from choosing the good as Christ said, "neither cometh to Him [the Light], because men love darkness RATHER THAN light, they NEITHER COME TO HIM."
We must take these words of Christ as written else we call Him a liar if we refuse to believe His Word.
"Throughout the course of church history, many people have taught that Jesus' spirit descended into hell after His death on the cross. Basing this idea on Ephesians 4:8–10 and 1 Peter 3:18–20, most of those who have taught that Jesus' spirit went to hell after His death have said that He went there to proclaim judgment to sinners and/or rescue the saints of the Old Testament. Today, many in the heretical Word of Faith movement teach that the crucifixion was insufficient to atone for our sins and that Jesus also had to suffer three days of torment in hell.
"Faithfulness to all of Scripture, however, requires us to deny that Jesus' spirit went to hell after He died. First, Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in Paradise on the same day of their crucifixion (Luke 23:39– 43). Second, nothing in Ephesians 4:8–10 says Jesus descended into hell; Paul means only that Christ descended into the grave. Third, 1 Peter 3:18–20 likely refers to the Son of God preaching by the Holy Spirit through Noah to the people of Noah's day. Finally, Jesus finished His atoning work on the cross. The New Testament speaks of propitiation, the turning away of the Lord's wrath, only in relation to Jesus shedding His blood on the cross (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 9:1–10:18; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; 5:6–11). Moreover, our Savior's last words on the cross were 'It is finished' (John 19:30). He saw His work as completed when He died.
"Jesus' spirit never went to hell, but on the cross He suffered the full wrath of God that is poured out in hell. True, the scourgings of the guards, the nails in Christ's hands, and the other physical pains Jesus suffered manifested God's wrath. Nevertheless, the most intense suffering Christ experienced was spiritual in nature, the hopelessness of losing the gaze of His Father's blessing and the torment of experiencing God's wrath for the sins of His people (Mark 15:34). John Calvin comments, 'After explaining what Christ endured in the sight of man, the Creed appropriately adds the invisible and incomprehensible judgment which He endured before God, to teach us that not only was the body of Christ given up as the price of redemption, but that there was a greater and more excellent price -- that He bore in His soul the tortures of a condemned and ruined man' (Institutes 2.16.10).
"Sin against an infinite being demands an infinite punishment in hell. In a few hours, Jesus suffered and exhausted the infinite punishment that impenitent people cannot exhaust even after an eternity in hell. He could do this because, in His deity as the Son of God, He is an infinite being. This is a great mystery, but as the Heidelberg Catechism states, it does assure us that we are fully delivered from the anguish and torment of hell in Christ (Q and A 44)." --R. C. Sproul
When did these acts take place
Hebrews 9:12 (NASB)
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Ephesians 4:8 (NASB)
8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
1 Peter 3:19 (NASB)
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1 Peter 4:6 (NASB)
6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.