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recognizing loved ones in heaven |
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Rev 7:9
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My Pastor recently explored Rev. 7:9. John refers to a "great multitude" speaking of what he saw in heaven. He described the people as being "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"
If John could describe that the people where of different nations and kindreds(families) and tongues (languages) then it may be conclusive to say that we retain our "identity" in heaven, which means we would recognize our loved ones or in particular our family. "Kindreds" refers to family - this is the word used in KJV. In other versions NKJV and NIV instead of "kindreds" it says "tribes" which still refers to family. I would suggest reading it for yourself - and praying for the Lord to reveal to you what is accurate. I have not really given this alot of thought or prayer time myself - but I thought this may help you. |
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Only 144,000 virgins in heaven? |
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Revelation
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We should read the first chapters of Revelation to understand that the Lord is calling everyone to repentance. Look at Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Regarding the 144,000 God is speaking about the 12 tribues Rev 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Look what it continues to say: Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude WHICH NO ONE COULD NUMBER, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." |
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Tongues,where scriptures |
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Not Specified
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Scriptures on speaking in tongues,what are they |
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Tongues,where scriptures |
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Acts 2:4
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Scriptures on speaking in tongues,what are they |
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Tongues,where scriptures |
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Acts 2:4
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To find the Scriptures on speaking in tongues, start with the second chapter of Acts.
. . . Then look up tongues in a concordance. (Concordance: an alphabetical index of the principal words in a book.)
. . . Go to bible.crosswalk.com
. . . There you will find an online concordance. Under "Search for" type tongues. Then click on "Find". |
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Tongues,where scriptures |
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Acts 2:1
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Scriptures on speaking in tongues,what are they |
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Tongues,where scriptures |
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Acts 2:1
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On the day of Pentecost,as Jesus stated, He sent the Holy Spirit to the disciples. "Divided tongues, as of fire, appeared among them and rested on each of them. They were at this time filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues. In 1 Cor 14 Paul teaches about the gift of tongues. He states that those who speak in tongues do not talk to others but to God and nobody understands them.
(v.2) and that the speech is unintelligible (v.9).
In 1Cor.13:1 Paul speaks of talking with the tongues of men and angels which indicates that languages other than the human language may be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul also lists tongues as one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:10).
In Mark 16:17, Mark tells us that Jesus gave us a promise - "and those who believe; by using my name will speak in tongues".
In Eph 6:18 Paul tells us to pray in the Spirit in every prayer and supplication.
In Romans 8:26 - 27 Paul states that "the Spirit helps us in our time of weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should" and that very Spirit intercedes for the saints with sighs too deep for words." God understands what we don't.
In Isaiah 28:11 Isaiah prophesies concerning tongues. He tell us that "He will speak with an alien tongue". |
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Is prophecy dead? |
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Matt 11:13
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It depends on what you mean by "prophesy" if it is a word that is to be taken as verbally from God- therefore the contents of those words are to be adhered to as we do Scripture- you are going to be hard pressed to prove your position from the Word of God. By the way John was an Apostle, chosen by the Lord to write Scripture, so your first defense falls, because 99 percent of the miracles and prophesy in the NT is by an apostle. Though normative for them in the office, does not mean normative for the church, or later generations. Like all adherents to the "so called" charismatic movement they have no Scriptual basis for how they operate their gifts, sense no clear definition or declaration is given as to how each and everyone was performed by the individual. The case of the modern "false tongues", every and I mean every indication in the NT is these were "earthly languages", never babbling unintelligble noise, yet every gift of so-called tongues today is nithing but gibberish. Speaking from experience since I have heard probably 6 to 7,000 people speak them, and not all at once, including myself who through the grace of God was delivered from the false holy ghost revival. As to heavenly pray language well it does not exsist and never did- 1 cor 12:7, Paul clearly states these gifts were for the "common" good never to build oneself up spiritually or communicate with God on a private level. The modern Cahrismatic movement, the Third Wave, etc, are "mysticism" in christian "sheep colthing".
I do not mean to be so blunt- but thats the facts.
Do I believe God speaks to His people - most assuredly- in the Word, in response to our prayers, and yes I have seen people raised from sickness to health, with the aid of doctors and without- though the Lord is working in both situations. But I have also seen loved ones slip into eternity- even with our prayers- but even there He works miracles in our minds and heart.
So yes our God is a God of miracles- but no the stuff I hear come from those who have fallen into the false "holy spirit" that started approx. 35 years ago.
Standing for our Saviour Jesus Christ, who by the Eternal Spirit has redeemed us.
Whyndell |
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Is prophecy dead? |
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Matt 11:13
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Paul was not saying that one could not correct those who wereerrant, since for 3 chapters is exactly what he was doing. That was his whole point in chapter 14- those who were speaking in tongues not edifying the body were in error, they assumed that they were speaking spiritual mysteries, but no one could understand them. Now to take verse 2 and say that this means they were talking to god in a heavenly prayer language, is a serious error. There is no, and never has been a prayer language of tongues.
As to my experiences they are just as legitmate as yours, which thanks the Lord Jesus Christ, who By the Holy Spirit delievered me from the Heresey of the Charismatic Movement. Say what you will, but you do not speak in tongues, and you never will.
You do not have the simplist understanding of what tongues were for.
I thought when I came on to this message site it would be of some biblical based discussions, but instead its another"tongue talker " network.
Lots of luck will not respond to anymore of these messages. |
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Is prophecy dead? |
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Matt 11:13
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I assume that you're still on the list, Whyndell, but are simply tired of responding to this particular thread. I'd like to clarify some things from my previous posting. This can be a maddening topic, since there is so much abuse of this gift in many (if not a vast majority of) situations where it is practiced. (If I were to base this only on various and varied personal observations of worship services, I could even be tempted to say "all" situations, but I hesitate to thus "forbid" their practice, since I feel this would be against Scripture). Nevertheless, if one is convinced that such gifts have ceased, he or she must obviously take such an approach (with fear and trembling, I trust, for reasons that I restate below).
I absolutely agree that Paul was not discouraging people from correcting error. He was, however, saying not to forbid speaking in tongues (in the manner in which God ordained that they be practiced, and in no other way).
For the record, I agree with your definition of tongues as meaning earthly languages. Every direct reference and example of tongues in Scripture (including 1 Cor 12 and 14, Pentecost, and Peter's preaching to Cornelius and his friends) refers specifically to actual human languages; Paul's reference that there are many languages and none is without meaning (1 Cor 14:10) surely indicates a reference to earthly tongues. It seems unreasonable to assume the mention of "tongues of angels" anything but exaggeration in 1 Corinthians 13:1, unless we are also to consider some to "know all mysteries and all knowledge" and to "have all faith, so as to remove mountains" as well. Clearly Paul is not necessarily advocating these as real possibilities.
I assume that your statement, "You do not have the simplest understanding of what tongues were for," refers to the fact that tongues were used as a sign. It is true that one purpose of tongues is as a sign, albeit not a sign leading to belief among unbelievers or the ungifted -- just as prophecy is a sign leading to new belief (1 Cor 14:22-25, full passage needed for context). However, just has prophecy has other purposes than simply acting as a sign (clear and accurate communication from God), so may tongues (perhaps purer worship of God without being filtered through a fleshly mind). If, on the basis of 1 Cor 14:22-25, one says tongues can only be used as a sign and nothing else, he must do the same with prophecy, for they are clearly compared and contrasted in parallel.
This is a tiresome subject, and it would take a book to clarify it. I recommend the collection of Lloyd-Jones sermons on this topic, "The Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit." I'm not in full agreement (including something this posting), but I think he has the best explication I've seen. |
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Why do we disagree? |
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1 Thessalonians
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We disagree because we are human and our thinking is tainted by sin, that I think is the primary reason. I think also we disagree because the Bible, at least to me, (and I run the risk of really sounding bad here) is often hard to understand. For example, the issue of speaking in tongues. Both sides, those that believe tongues are for today and those that say tongues have ceased, both prove their point by quoteing scripture. How can that be?
We all have one major flaw when it comes to reading the Bible, well two, the mentioned at first, our sin tainted mind, and the fact that we tend to bring a lot of baggage with us when we read the Bible. How many of us can honestly read the Bible with an open mind? Not many. How many of us are really willing to change when proving wrong on something we have believed the Bible taught since we were children? Not very many of us.
That is why it is so important to pray before studying the Bible and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is also why I like this forum so much, it allows to see and hear things I might not have ever thought about.
I do believe that it is God's will for us to be one, and if we all were lead wholly by the Spirit, we would be, God is big enough to do that.
But I kinda doubt it will happen on this earth.
later...wdc |
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How have the offices changed? |
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Eph 4:11
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Ok, I'm sure someone's already answered like this, and I'm just adding my 2 cents. To give you some advice, hopefully good, I would contact a well-known Christian leader--like Charles Stanley or Adrian Rodgers (or Tim LaHaye or Jack Van Impe, just to name a few)--of your denomination, not that *your* denomination has the right view point, but...). Anyway, I think for every gift that has gone "out of office," there's a secondary for it. Exp. tongues used to be speaking a language w/o previously learning it. Now, I believe that the gift of tongues is God giving you a passion/talent for speaking another language. See what I mean? This is just my opinion, so take it or leave it. I hope I helped you! |
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Woe to us? |
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Matt 23:13
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Dear Charis: A partial answer to your question: Pharisees, not unlike tongues and other gifts of the Spirit, did NOT cease to exist at the close of the 1st Century A.D. Pharisees, whose character is marked by hypocrisy and self-righteousness, still exist today. Whoever they are (and their name should be Legion, for they are many) the woes and judgments of God would still apply. I don't know whether the hypocritical and self-righteous alone are responsible for the splintered church of today. Neither could I or would I defend the division we have. What do we do? Hypothetically speaking, if every believer would abide in Christ and let the Word of Christ and the Spirit of God dwell in him/her richly -- i.e. if agape love ruled -- then we could heal much of the division in the church today. What to do is fairly self-evident. HOW to do it, or HOW to bring it about, is something we still need to work on. Your brother in the Lord, JVH0212 |
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Please consider Jn 3:5 water and Spirit |
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1 Pet 3:21
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I was baptized when I was a new Christian over 30 years ago. When the Lord saved me I was regenerated by the Holy Spirit and have ever since lived my Christian life in the power of the Holy Spirit. I do not see any where in Scripture "second blessing" theology-there is not such thing as a baptism of the Spirit after conversion. I do believe in fresh fillings of the Spirit, but those fillings have nothing to do with what is called "speaking in tongues"-the Holy Spirit lives in the Christian and is the cause of all his spiritual growth etc. . . |
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Baptism of the Holy Spirit after reborn? |
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1 Cor 12:13
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The most natural reading of John 20:21-22 indicates that Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles at that time and that the "filling" of Pentecost was something different, which empowered them to be effective in proclaiming the Gospel more powerfully. However, it is a mistake to equate this with any specific gift. It is also a mistake to equate this with current practices involving certain procedures. Please consider the following as merely an attempt at exposition and NOT intended to bash anyone or to question anyone's intentions; while some may be offended by the directness, this is not meant as an attack.
The utterances of praise that were given at Pentecost were real languages (Acts 2:4-11), and there is no mention whatsoever (here or elsewhere) of anyone speaking in some kind of "heavenly" language being connected with the Holy Spirit. In contrast, I have never seen nor heard of modern-day scheduled or choreographed "Holy Spirit baptisms" being accompanied by an actual foreign language (unknown to the speaker) that a bonafide foreign language speaker testified to -- never; yet this is precisely what happened spontaneously at Pentecost. Nor have I ever heard of modern conditions where physical tongues of fire actually came down upon "recipients". It's simply not the same as the event that they claim it to be equal to. Correctly spoken praise in real languages (by non-speakers) can be easily tested by actual speakers -- as at Pentecost and likewise again in Acts 10:44-47;11:15-16 when the Gospel and the Spirit first went out to the Gentiles. Claims of unknown languages are neither verifiable nor (therefore) authoritative, since (by their very nature) they can prove nothing.
This is not to say that there is no such separate experience of being "filled" with the Spirit, but Pentecost and claims of modern parallels are completely different. Can this happen? Perhaps (and most likely in a place where the Gospel is first appearing), but it should be expected to happen as a unique and spontaneous event initiated by the Spirit -- not led, encouraged or brought on by any action of man.
Doubtless someone somewhere may think of 1 Corinthians 13:1 indicating at least a possibility for angelic tongues -- but this is clearly hyperbole in its immediate context, which includes parallel references to people who literally "move mountains" with their faith and-or "know all mysteries and all knowledge" -- which they don't. Paul is using hyperbole to make a point about the priority of love far beyond even greatly exaggerated versions of real gifts. Please look at the context carefully.
I'd like to expand more on the idea of the filling of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, but I can feel myself ready to ramble too quickly and loosely. Besides, I'm sure others can add some of the same ideas with Scripture references. Another time. |
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Baptism of the Holy Spirit after reborn? |
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1 Cor 12:13
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You are correct in the fact that the disciples already had the Holy Spirit living in them before Pentecost (John 20:22), but they were not baptized with the Holy Spirit. This first occurred at Pentecost, just as Jesus promised (Acts 1:5). This could not have been a one time occurrence with the disciples as the only recipients, as you suggest. Did the disciples go “to the end of the Earth?” (Acts 1:8) The account of tongues at Pentecost is the only time I recall where tongues were actually understood by someone other than God, so this could have been a miracle of hearing, as well as evidence of the Baptism of Holy Spirit as promised. Note: vs6 "everyone HEARD them speak in his own language" Note: vs8 "we HEAR, each in our own language" Note: vs11 "we HEAR them speaking in our own tongues.” The utterances of praise that were given at Pentecost were real languages? Maybe, maybe not.
A mistake to equate this with any specific gift? I don’t think it’s a mistake. Neither does the Word. (Acts11:17)
No mention whatsoever (here or elsewhere) of anyone speaking in some kind of "heavenly" language being connected with the Holy Spirit? Huh, I don’t know about that. (1Cor14:2)
1Cor13:1 “tongues of men and of angels” an exaggeration used for emphasis? I guess you might could read that into this scripture. I have read JM commentary also.
Baptism of Holy Spirit to be “spontaneous event initiated by the Spirit” yes -- “not led, encouraged or brought on by any action of man?” Certainly not forbidden. (Acts 8:14-15)
I will end on this note: This is not meant as an attack on my part, just as you have said it was not an attack on your part. I accept that, PLEASE do the same. You admit that a separate experience of being filled with the Spirit is possible, so I assume you cannot deny with any Biblical bases, only personal experience or observation. There is not much talk on this forum of personal experiences or even personal relationships with Jesus. I assure you, I have both. (Not to imply AT ALL that others do not have). Most of the talk is on theological issues, which will only take someone so far. Acts 15:8 says "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us. Notice the Holy Spirit was not given because of knowledge, but the HEART. I will make this deal with you. I won’t try to prove the Bible with any of my experiences or lack of them, or anybody else’s. My experiences or lack of them do not prove or disprove the Bible. The Bible stands on it’s own. If it does not line up with the Word, throw it out. |
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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There are two parts to my question here, and they both originate in 1 Corinthians 14. First, I pray that God helps my unbelief in that I have not seen or heard people properly (as how Paul describes it) speaking in tongues. For me, it feels hard to accept that it does happen, seeing a number of people abuse it (I'm not saying that I believe it doesn't happen; it's just harder for me to grasp when the people who do speak in tongues around you either 1)don't do it in a orderly fashion or 2)don't have an interpreter present, therefore creating chaos and disorder, at least in this friendly neighborhood bassist for the Lord). Can all spiritual gifts be mishandled like this one? I am thinking of one particual instance when I was at a church and the pastor made sure that he set down the laws for speaking in tongues and order in church, then proceeded to speak in tongues without an interpreter. That was when I knew I had to leave that church. Personal experiences aside, can those gifts be used improperly? I'd like some people of Pentecostal faith to chime in on this one as well.
Secondly: Should we still hold true to what Paul says about women speaking in verse 33-35? Or are we talking about two different times? If that's the case, how does that apply today, if at all? |
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Mrk16:17/Act2:11 what's the difference |
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Not Specified
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What is the difference between "new tongues" Mark 16:17 and "other tongues" Acts 2:11
I am trying to understand the difference of speaking in tongues where there is interpretation and speaking in tongues where everyone in the church is praying and then peoeple just start speaking in tongues all over the place.
Help??? |
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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I am not a Pentecostal Christian, but I have spoken in tongues(?). When I was a new Christian over 30 years ago I had an experience in which I spoke in tongues. I have not spoken in tongues for the last 25 years. I came to see that what was going on in the New Testament Church was not to continue throughout Church history. I see NT tongues to be known languages, not the speech of angels. I could go on all day, but I will be short and to the point. I see tongues as a religious experience that anyone can undergo. I do not see speaking in tongues as evidence one is a Christian. I do not see tongues to be essential to the Christian life. What we should be concern about is not religious experiences, but a holy life-a close relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to stop looking inside-stop seeking feelings-raptures-but we need to focus our spiritual eyes on the Lord-we need to lose sight of ourselves and seek to conform ourselves to the character of Christ.
Christians should attend churches where the Preaching and Teaching of the Bible is the focus Not religious experiences. In our church the sermons last from 45 minutes to 50 minutes. We sing the Psalms and read the Scriptures. Worship should be God centered and not feelings-centered (man-centered). The Bible clearly teaches women are to be silent during Sunday worship services-preachers are to be males not females. Now I see nothing wrong for women to share their thoughts during a Wednesday Night Bible study or other meetings outside the Sunday preaching services.
When I go to church what I want to hear is not a bunch of people speaking in tongues but the Word of God-I want to hear the glories of Christ Jesus set forth-I want the Cross of Christ to be lifted up before lost sinners-I want to hear the Gospel of God expounded in alls divine power and beauty. |
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Mrk16:17/Act2:11 what's the difference |
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Mark 16:17
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What is the difference between "new tongues" Mark 16:17 and "other tongues" Acts 2:11
I am trying to understand the difference of speaking in tongues where there is interpretation and speaking in tongues where everyone in the church is praying and then peoeple just start speaking in tongues all over the place.
Help??? |
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Mrk16:17/Act2:11 what's the difference |
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Mark 16:17
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Mark 16:9-20, including v. 17. "Serious doubt exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost" (p. 1455, Zondervan NASB Study Bible, Zondervan, 1999) |
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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I am probably not of Pentecostal faith as your are thinking of, but I do speak in tongues and hopefully within the guidelines set forth in Scripture. I am actually of a Southern Baptist background (BELIEVE IT OR NOT!). So I guess you could call me “Bapti-costal”! Am I a nut. Yes! But not because I speak in tongues! I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised in Acts1. That promise bore witness as being true thru out Acts (2,8,10,11,19). I believe it is still true today and is verified by the initial evidence of speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. Can speaking in tongues be faked? Yes! Can Jesus’s words in Act1:8 be faked? No! By their fruits you will know them (Matt 7:20). I believe all spiritual gifts will last till Jesus comes back, and none are excluded (1Cor1:7).
1 Cor 14 does not forbid tongues (vs39) in any way, either now or then. It only gives guidelines on how they are to used in public worship.
1. Tongues spoken for the congregation to hear, must be interpreted (vs28). Notice the un-interpreted tongue speaker is not disallowed to speak, but must speak to God and himself, not to the congregation.
2. Who should interpret? The tongue speaker themself (Vs13). Could that have been what happened in the Church you mentioned? Maybe, maybe not, but it seems strange for a man to declare God’s guidelines before the congregation, and them deliberately disobey and be subject to their ridicule.
3. Why must tongues spoken to the congregation be interpreted? For the benefit and protection of the uninformed and the unbelievers (vs23). Uninterprettd, the sign to the uninformed or the unbelievers (vs22) would NOT be a sign of edification, as would occur with interpretation (vs5). They would scoff and the Holy Spirit would be mocked (Acts2:13) and it would become a sign of judgement. The Isaiah quote bears this out.
4. What would be a true interpretation of a message in tongues to the congregation be? A message of man to God not God to man (vs2,16). In other words it will be thanks and praise not prophesy; not “Thus saith the Lord”.
5. Will proper us of tongues ever interrupt the teaching of the Word? NO! I do not think the Holy Spirit would interrupt Himself.
6. Can spiritual gifts be misused? OH YES! How? If they are not exercised in love (1Cor13:1-3). Example: Anyone with a I have, you have-not attitude. If they are exercised with pride instead of love.
7. Can tongues be used properly? YES! How? Personal prayer (vs14,15,Rom8:26) Build up your faith (vs4,18,Jude1:20). That the church may receive edification if interpreted (vs5).
8. Should we still hold true to what Paul says about women speaking in verse 33-35?. Jesus came to fulfill the law. One of the ways of fulfilling the Law was showing us Gods intentions, showing us Gods heart. Jesus told the Pharisees that an outward display of obedience was nothing, without an inward change of the heart. I think we have to look at this with Gods intent. If we imposes this as an outside display of obedience with no thought of God’s intent, we miss the point. I think we have to treat this in the newness of the Spirit, as Jesus taught, and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom7:6). The intent here was not to gag women, but to establish order in service. This addressed something that was causing disorder, just as the uncontrolled display of spiritual gifts was causing disorder. The theme of 1Cor14 is craptuted in verse 40, “so all things will be done decently and in order.” |
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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Thanx for your words, rextar. They are very much appreciated. Let me explain tho: I did not wish to single out those of Pentecostal faith as those who I wanted to answer this question; rather, the churches that my experiences have brought me to where I have seen the most glaring misuse of speaking in tongues (ie, without an interpreter in front of the church) have been in Pentecostal churches. I'm not saying that all PC churches are like that, my experience has told me otherwise. Being of Episcopal and then Baptist faith (on a side note, all of these denominations stink; someone asks me "What denomination are you?" and I gotta answer, "God's kind", but that's another issue for another time), I have not really heard people speak in tongues in my church. I do believe that it is a gift from God and it should be used to glorify the church, but what good does it do if it's not used in a way that creates confusion? My experience has brought me to this particular church, where the pastor even went as far as somewhat downing a group of people who did not understand the rules of speaking in tongues; it was man fabricated and they were only speaking gibberish. |
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Mrk16:17/Act2:11 what's the difference |
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Mark 16:17
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In this reference, to speak with a "new" tongue means that those who believe, accept Christ and have been anointed with the power of the Holy Spirit, will have a new message...the message God has given them. They will no longer speak the same things or have the same thoughts. God will order their tongues and tell them what to say.
To speak "in" tongues, is to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and will speak in their own language. This is a language that satan can not understand. Speaking in tongues is for the purpose of edifying and exhorting. If the message is for you, there will be someone present to interprete for you. If they message is the church or whole gathering, then someone will interprete to them.
Speaking in tongues and praying in your own prayer langauge is different. Prayer language is the language that you use to pray when not praying a public prayer. If you were asked to do the invocation at a service, you wouldn't pray in your prayer language...no one would understand and that would not be edifying to the group. |
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Mrk16:17/Act2:11 what's the difference |
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Mark 16:17
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When the tongues phenomenon occurred in the Bible, it happened with a purpose. These early occurrances of tongues-speaking happened when people of different languages were gathered. The purpose, clearly, was so that people of other nations could hear the Gospel in their own language. (See Acts 2:6)
Paul discouraged tongues without an interpreter. What is the purpose of the gift, if no one understands?
1 Cor. 12:10 calls the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues two different gifts. Therefore, the one speaking in tongues cannot be the one interpreting the tongues.
1 Cor. 14:2 says that one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to man, but to God, and that he does not edify the church but himself.
Keep in mind that tongues was low on the totem pole of gifts, as far as Paul was concerned. The most important purpose of the gifts was to edify the CHURCH ("for the common good"). The wording in v. 5 also makes it clear that although tongues was a valued gift, the interpretation of tongues was better, so that the church may be edified.
There is no instance of the type of tongues you are talking about (where everyone in the church is praying and then people just start speaking tongues all over the place) anywhere in the Scripture. I know this is happening in many churches today, but there is no Scriptural support for this activity whatsoever.
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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I confess I did not quote any verses to back of what I wrote concerning your questions. I gave you my opinion for what it is worth. Now how to defend my opinions with verses from the Bible. I do not have any new verses to use to back up my opinions. In this StudyBible Forum I see the same questions being asked all the time especially the women issue and tongues. I have nothing else to add to the debate except my opinion-the Bible verses setting forth what the Bible teaches about the role of women in the local church have been quoted several times in the StudyBible Forum. When it comes to the phenomenon of what is described by Pentecostals as speaking in tongues I can only offer my opinions. Among Christians we have Pentecostals and non-Pentecostals. I personally see no value spiritually in speaking in gibberish. I can not explain to you how I came to speak in tongues if I now believe it to be unbiblical. I have some biblically based arguements but I can not fulfill that task in this small white box-I could recommend some books that helped me-but in the end we must go by the plain teachings of the Bible. The last week I have been doing a study of First Corinthians-I am only on chapter 3-but I do see that the apostle Paul's main desire was to preach Christ crucified and not anything else-my opinion is that as Christians we will only mature spiritually under the preaching of the Bible-textual preaching-if one was to preach from Genesis to Revelations would one find "tongues" to be super important or the Lord Jesus Christ? The focus of Scripture is the Lord-we must get our eyes off ourselves and focus them on the Lord Jesus Christ. |
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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I agree that focusing on Jesus should be our main concern, but we cannot just ignore the effects of spiritual gifts to the glory of God and the edification of the church. Speaking in tongues is designed for unbelievers. What better way to get your message across that our God is an awesome God than to communicate it in someone else's language? Tongues is a gift, true, and it can and has been misused, agreed, but what about the men who spoke in tongues in Acts 2:1-11? Is that not true? They were accused of being drunk. The people who they were speaking weren't ready or willing at that time to accept God.
Gifts of God - no matter what they are - should be used to glorify Him, and should not be taken lightly. It's the fact that I've seen some people take it lightly that discourages me.
The spirit of the Lord will do what it will. People have been brought closer to God - saved or otherwise - through speaking, through prophesy, through spiritual gifts. Our concern, our focus, our LIFE is Jesus, but shouldn't our duty as Christians be to extend to others who are fast tracking it to Hell? What would be the point of showing our light? Like I stated, not all spiritual gifts are for us. They are for the edification of the body of Christ, which is the church.
I'd like to know what these books are that you have read about tongues. |
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1Corinthians questions: Gifts and women |
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1 Corinthians
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Hi KBurgee, I want to write to you and retxar about questions I have related to your question. The gift of tongues was something I prayed about some twenty years ago even though my dad had told me that that had "passed away" years ago. What do people think they are expressing on the whole when they are baptized or filled or whatever word is used? Expressed another way, do most people say they are filled with the Holy Spirit or with a holy spirit?
1 Corinthians 14:2 says, "for no one understands but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." Also, "his" is in italics and evidently not in Greek.
1Corinthians 14:14 says, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays,..." These two verses are saying that it is our spirit that is praying to God. It is not the Spirit's words.
Compare Acts 2:4, "And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Listen to me now,(no I'm not Charles Stanley)could this read "And they were filled with holy spirit and began to speak... as the Spirit gave them utterance." When you look at these verses, should that be the interpretation? Again, what do most people think they are expressing when speaking in tongues? Is it like retxar said, "Thus saith the Lord" when it wasn't Him speaking at all?
I don't know that much about Charismatics and what they think they are doing. Look at Acts 4:31 with my preferred lower case, "and they were filled with the holy spirit, and they spoke the word (singular) of God with boldness." I think the NASB reads "began to speak" because later verses showed that they continued to give testimony.
You have said "The spirit of the Lord will do what it will" We know that the Holy Spirit is a He not an it. But in reference to what I am talking about it would not be out of the question to test the spirits and see if it is from God.
I wonder, because of your capitalization of Life if you would consider Colossians 3:3,4 with me? "For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our Life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory." Col.3:13 goes along with Corinthians 13 and 14, "Beyond all these things put on love" and "Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you..." Later, Ray |
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Baptism of the Holy Spirit after reborn? |
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1 Cor 12:13
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Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. My job gets busy or slow at unexpected times, and of course that has to come first.
While I definitely have certain things that I have strong views on, I'm not particularly interested in debate as much as trying to understand more clearly what the Scriptures say -- changing my views and questioning others' views if I'm uncertain about their accuracy.
It's hard to gauge from written correspondence on this kind of forum, but it seems like you're seeking to debate. For example, you said of me, "You admit that a separate experience of being filled with the Spirit is possible, so I assume you cannot deny...." "Admit" would be an incorrect word suggesting debate. I BELIEVE that Christians can (and often do) have such experiences; therefore, when a group claims something to consistently be an example(or the example) of such an experience, it should be tested against the Scriptural accounts and guidelines. I was stating my beliefs, not conceding debated points.
That said, I'd like to make some observations about these passages.
Acts 2 doesn't mention the "baptism" of the Spirit, and the initial verse quoted (1 Cor 12:13 -- probably when the question was asked) appears to refer to ALL Christians. I would equate this reference with receiving the Spirit (immediately following belief). Being "filled with" the Spirit appears to be different from being "baptized by" the Spirit. In John 20 and Acts 2 (along with Acts 4, etc.) receiving the Spirit and a first experience of "filling" appear to have happened separately (although there are many solid teachers and theologians who would disagree). This does not mean that they never happen together, but they initially happened separately for the disciples; this filling was also repeated (e.g. Acts 4:31) among the same people (and without any indication of supernatural tongues in that particular case).
The idea that these (the "tongues" or languages of Acts 2) were somehow angelic tongues and that the listeners also miraculously (magically?) heard them in their own languages seems very far-fetched to me; let me elaborate. In the text, Luke clearly indicates that the Spirit fell upon the disciples; he says nothing about the Spirit falling upon the hearers. In fact, the text indicates they had not even received the Spirit at all after this point, set aside being filled. Peter later tells the hearers to repent and seek forgiveness and THEN RECEIVE the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
Luke makes a specific point of identifying the various native languages of the hearers, and stating NOT that they could "understand" them as if in their own languages; rather they "heard" them "in [their] own languages." There is a gift of "interpretation of tongues" -- but interpretation is different from hearing in one's own language. The miracle was in the disciples speaking the listeners' languages, NOT in the listeners somehow hearing some unknown language as if they were their own. Paul's explanation in 1 Cor 14:10-14 also describes the use of these gifts; I'm not an expert on languages, but I speak several. When I hear one of those foreing languages, I don't think I'm hearing English. If I'm explaining it to someone who doesn't understand, I "interpret" it; I don't repeat back the English that I heard.
In addition, the word 'tongues' also means 'languages' -- which is plural, and the passage I noted from 1 Cor 14 also indicates the use of world languages. It makes logical sense to recognize that Pentecost was an example of the disciples speaking in real foreign languages, which were recognized by native speakers. It doesn't make logical sense for it to be referring to angelic languages.
I can see where someone may possibly interpret other references as speaking of such angelic tongues (although I personally disagree with such interpretations), but this is the first I've heard such a suggestion specifically about Pentecost. I don't associate such a concept with any specific Christian group or groups, so my aim is not to challenge any particular group's beliefs that I know of. Have others heard such an interpretation taught? If so, how is it supported? |
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