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Why did God have no regard for Cain? |
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Heb 11:4
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Maybe if Cain had regard for God (a valid abiding faith in and love for God), he would have been concerned with pleasing God after his offering was rejected and not focused on murdering his brother. I think Cain must have been a spiritual wasteland before he ever presented his offering to God. |
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Is repentance required? |
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Ex 20:13
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Amigo, If you consider repentance to be a single event, then admitting your sinful nature produces salvation from hell when accompanied by confessing Christ Jesus as Lord and believing in His resurrection. However, repentance means to 'turn away' from sin. Certainly we must admit sin in order to begin repentance, but we must also change our hearts and our actions. The Holy Spirit will guide you to this end. I seems that God is pleased if we continue to fight against sin, repenting and changing. We cannot 'purchase' our salvation in this manner, but certainly our Father will be proud of us if we stop sinning. Returning to the original question about suicide, I believe it is possible for 'self-murder' to be forgiven. However, the final say is in God's hands, we can only trust in His mercy. Please remember that this does not make suicide an option. God is not 'required' to do anything, certainly not behave according to our interpretation of Scripture.
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Can one who commits suicide be saved? |
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Ex 20:13
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No. That's murder. Even thought we now call it suicide it is murder in God's eyes. |
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Can one who commits suicide be saved? |
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Ex 20:13
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God does not forgive suicide because the person who committed the sin can not ask for forgiveness afterwards. God can forgive you for commiting a murder to another person if you live to repent, but if there is no life left in your body to repent you are not forgiven. The bible says you have not because you ask not. If you can't ask you can't get it. |
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What is the sin unto death? |
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1 John 5:16
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That is a very tough question, and although scholars have several differnt theorys, none can be considered definate, although I believe that most can be ruled out. I will present these theorys:1)Possably a specific sin requiring the death sentance(see OT on murder or dissobidiance towards parents). 2) Sins committed intentionally v. accidentaly-in other words, and accidental sin would not carry with it the sentance of death. 3) Mortal sins v. venial sins- this would be most Catholic interpretations, although the Bible clearly teaches in many places elsewhere that all sin is sin, and the penalty is death(Rom.3)4) State of habitual sin willfully chosen and persisted in-This theory has merits, as Jihn has claimed in this epistle that the true believer does not willfully sin habitually, so it would seem to be talking about non-believers.5)Apostacy 6) Mark 3-blasphemy against the Holy Spirit(accrediting the work of the Spirit to the devil) 7) My professor has this theory, and it is the one that I would go with as well-Remember the context of the passage, and that is prayer for believers, that they might escape the sin that has them entangled. The context of the book as a whole has been the hereesy of the false teachers, and John has gone to great lengths to prove that they are not in the Light, but are in fact, un-believers. Their sin is unbelief, and that sin can not be forgiven,since it is a slap in the face of a God who had spilled His blood tht they might be saved(1 John 2:2). When we see our brother committing sin, we need to pray for them, as they have the Spirit in them, and that makes them recoverable. These false teachers have not that help, and so the sin, unbelief, is indeed a sin leading to eternal death. I hope that this helps. Let me know if I can try to comment further. Sean Lillis Emmaus Bible College |
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Are the unevangelized people really lost |
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Rom 2:15
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Are the unevangelized people really lost?
. . . Yes, they are. How shall they believe? "...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31) It follows then that not to believe is not to be saved. "...And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?..." (Rom 10:14 NKJV).
Is God's judgment upon the unevanglized a just judgment?
. . . Yes, it is. Romans 2:2 "But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things."
. . . What have the unevangelized done to deserve such condemnation?
. . . "God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them" (Rom 1:19 TEV)
. . . Today's English Version Romans 1:18-32
. . . God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain. Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all! They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools; instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.
. . . And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts. In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing.
. . .
Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do. They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents; they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others. They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them.
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Does Bible support capital punishment? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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In answer to your question, I can say that it certainly doesn't oppose capital punishment. Take these verses for example:
Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."
Exodus 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."
NUM 35:16-19 "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he struck him down with a stone in the hand, by which he may die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. Or if he struck him with a wooden object in the hand, by which he may die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. The blood avenger himself shall put the murderer to death; he shall put him to death when he meets him.
NUM 35:21 "or if he struck him down with his hand in enmity, and as a result he died, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death, he is a murderer; the blood avenger shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.
That's not to say that we each have the right to vigilante killings. No. God clearly points out that authorities are brought to power for the purpose of administering justice. (For example, Romans 13:1-4) This includes capital punishment, which requires evidence, not revenge.
NUM 35:30-31 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. Moreover, you shall not take ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death."
I know this is a bit long, but one final comment to share: There's very good commentary on this topic by Greg Koukl (A Christian Apologist and Radio Talk Show Host in CA) at the following 2 URLs:
http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/social_issues/reasonsf.htm
and at
http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/social_issues/cap_pun.htm
God Bless you... In Christ Jesus.
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How about common sense? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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I would ask you to supply Scripture for some of the things you have stated as well.
The main thrust of what I am saying is that we should trust the Lord with our children, i.e., with how many He blesses us with and when. And this fits perfectly into the context of us living a life of total trust and dependence on the sovereign will of God.
I do not believe in abortion, even in cases of rape or incest, or even when the mother's life is in danger. An abortion is the murdering of a guiltless person and Scripture says, "Thou shalt not murder." Anyway, it is a fact that instances where it's the child's life or the mother's are extremely rare. These are hyped-up scenarios in the media, unbelieving secularists, to bring fear confusion to the issue.
God is in control and He is sovereign over all. Many forms of contraception, like RUD480 (or whatever it's called) and the IUD, simply kill the fertilized egg,or at least they at times work in that manner. So even some "contraceptions" actually work like tiny abortions.
I do not think we ought to try and have as many kids as possible; but I also do not think we ought to try to prevent having any kids either.
Again, my reasons come down to this: 1. If a Christian mother becomes pregnant God has provided that child for the family and its care. 2. We have a loving God, a God who provides for us, one Whom we can trust. 3. If God gives us a child, we should trust Him in that matter.
"Practical matters" just do not come into these precepts; although I acknowledge that there could be some scenarios where things become less clear and we have to use our God-given wisdom. I just think those scenarios are the exception rather than the rule.
My points are not so much about childbirth, but on absolute trust and dependence on the One who brought US into the world.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight." (Prov 3:5-6)
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How about common sense? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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My dear friend bjanko, I agree with so much thay you say! I do, however, detect two questions, not one. 1) Abortion (murder) and 2) contraception (prevent conception) I am just as adamant as you about 1), but the original question is about 2)
My scripture references are: Proverbs 1:20 "Wisdom shouts in the street, She lifts her voice in the square;" and Proverbs 8:5 "O naive ones, discern prudence; And, O fools, discern wisdom." I know that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Proverbs 1:7, and that we must trust Him in all our ways. But the above proverbs clearly speak of 'common sense' and 'prudence' as being valid forms of wisdom. 'Practical matters' must enter into our Christian life, or we are not witnesses of truth. (Remember, I agree with you about abortion and post-conception 'birth-control') As to 'rare' health problems, women close to menopause have numerous situations where there is real danger concerning pregnancy, both to mother and child. In a free, 'enlightened,' rich society (like America), with abundant health care, you may have the 'luxury' of deciding to have as many children as you can. In China, attempting to have more than one child is a serious offense. In India, having abundant children is the same as murdering several of those children. In many parts of Africa, bearing children with in-born AIDS is common. In most of the 'rest of the world,' health care is so poor that simple procedures are truly life-threatening. These are not 'hypotheticals,' but reality. One of the big hinderances to evangelism is that Western missionaries are so 'unreal' and bigoted.
Again, I believe in 'family' planning. Plan to have a family! But, PLAN.
I receive your thought and continue to pray, would you reciprocate? Blessings to you, my friend, in Christ Jesus. |
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How about common sense? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Maybe you could list the other variations of circumstances where a believer's situation should come into play. Because unless I have a specific idea as to the various types of scenarios I'm omitting, I'm unable to more properly -- or "wisely" -- admit modification of what I have already exressed. In a general discussion, after all, we cannot always account for every situation, but it would be good to account for EVERY TYPE of situation. So, maybe you can itemize a little more clearly the TYPES of situations I might be omitting, rather than just toss out of a handful of examples.
By the way, I never said or implied that "Under no circumstance is it allowable!"; I simply gave a general principle/guideline. And in fact far from making the above statement, I even admitted that my view might not apply in certain circumstances which I have not considered. A refrain of mine has been, though, that even if we allow for exceptions in certain situations, I think the tendency would be for most Christians to claim these exceptions rather than just bite the bullet and do the right thing. But even so: there might still very well be some exceptions.
You seemed to say that in your country (or somewhere) there are people living in poverty, etc. Having many children in such a situation would not be a new or unusual thing. Anway, I don't say they should have many children; they just ought not prevent the having of children.
You are right: this is not directly addressed in the Bible. What I am saying is based on a bit of inference and also the idea that we should resist modernist ideas which smack of worldly wisdom and rob of us the opportunity to trust the Lord.
However, since this is something which is less clear in Scripture, I could concede that it may be like the food which Paul mentions in Romans 14. Some feel right about contraception and others do not; each one should be led by his own conscience.
However, we should remember that any form of contraception which retroactively destroys the egg after conception is really an abortion! Birth control pills are not safe. So, the only thing I can think of that's left would be condoms, which are not, of course, one hundred percent reliable.
If a pregnant woman is likely to die while in labor, I would say that is a very, very unfortunate situation, like having a fatal disease. Yet, to "save" her by murdering the child is still murder.
In your own case, since your wife is not yet pregnant, then I would say that contraception is not only called for, but demanded. There is no child to "abort" at this point, and the best thing to do is to prevent that, since it might prove fatal for your wife. While nothing is one hundred percent, it would seem wise in your particular instance, to save your wife's life, that she have her tubes tied or you have a vasectomy or BOTH!
How can I turn around and suddenly advocate such a radical form of contraception in your case, after all I have said? Because I believe the biblical precept which does apply here is "Thou shalt not murder." This is broader than it sounds; we know from the Sermon on the Mount that it ranges from hatred to murder and therefore, we can assume that the preserving of innocent life in all cases in which we can is the correct option.
You and I agree that abortion is murder. Well, since the Lord, in His goodness, has allowed you to know about your wife's tumor, Lord willing the doctors will be able to remove it. But if you know pregnancy could bring her into a condition which might cost her life, then you should do all that you can to prevent that from occurring. Total abstinence is unhealthy and unbiblical for a marriage. But in a case such as yours, it would seem that a radical form of contraception -- tubal ligation AND vasectomy would be called for.
Realize friend, I'm approaching this all in the abstract; I cannot empathize or share your worries as much as I would like, since we are only communicating in these little boxes. But forgive me if my tone sounds harsh and uncaring. I'm trying to respond as best and honestly and as helpfully, I pray, that I can.
Regards. |
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How about common sense? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Dear bjanko, good answer, my friend. You are absolutely correct about people (even Christians!) thinking of their situation as an exception. That is precisely why I have been saying that they must be under the spiritual counsel of a shepherd AND the Holy Spirit. (It is amazing how many selfish things can be attributed to the Holy Spirit, isn't it?) You are also correct that poverty alone is a poor (no pun intended) excuse for not having children. If I were to try and typify some possible factors for considering non-abortive contraception, it would be 1) Poverty and Government oppression (like China) The PROC expressly forbids more than one child, the punishment can be extreme! 2) Poverty and poor health care (like India) Having many children is certain doom for those truly finite resources and almost no medicine or hospital facilities. 3) Poverty and disease (like many parts of Africa) AIDS is a REAL epidemic. Bearing children without care is murder. 4) Poverty and political turmoil (like much of Africa and Asia) I am not real sure about this one, but moderation COULD be in order where terrorism and religious persecution are daily realities. 5) Poverty and overpopulation (many metropolitan cities) I am not a 'save the world from overpopulation' nut, but I have been to many places where there is no physical ability to keep more children. I am aware that you could hang them from the ceiling in hammocks, but prudence CAN be a factor. My friend, I am very much aware that now that I have gone 'out on a limb' to list possible factors. Now you are at liberty to just say, "1-5, No excuse! Christians have lived through that before." But these factors, sometimes more than one, affect millions of believers in a real way that we Americans cannot fathom. 'Armchair Quarterbacks' don't win football games. I am simply making a case for us to be moderate in our dictation of ethics, especially where the Bible is silent or unclear. Blessings to you in Christ Jesus. |
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Why the 7th day bent? |
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Col 2:16
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In the beginning,God created heaven and the earth in 6 literal days, on the 7th day He rested, and made this day Holy. God new that man needed a day of rest (sabbath means rest) to renew,rest,worship and remember Him as God and creator. God reaffirmed this to Moses with the ten commanment law written with His own finger,engraved in stone.(the only scripture that was not given through men).
What day is the Sabbath day? Saturday. Read the account of the crucifixion in the book of Luke. Christ was crucified on Friday( the preperation day),rested on the sabbath day in the tomb,(saturday),and arose on the first day of the week(sunday). Christ kept the sabbath,even in his death. The apostles kept the sabbath,even Paul. He taught the Jews and the Gentiles alike on the sabbath day.
Sould we keep the Sabbath today? Yes! I challenge anyone to show me from scripture where God changed the day to sunday.(first day of the week)
How did the change take place? Study chruch history. It happened during roman times when the church and government became one. During the reign of Constintine,(a pagan and nominal christian), who worshiped the sun.there festival day was sunday (the venerable day of the sun).In order to unite the empire,with the churches apostasy,to incorporate the pagans into the chruch (along with many of there practices and idol worship),the day was slowly changed to sunday.
Will we keep the Sabbath in the future? Read the book of Isa.66th chapter.verses22-23. Yes we will.
Gods ten commandment laws have not changed nor will they change.
Was this part of the law given by inspiration through Moses? No. the mosaic law and ordinances were nailed to the cross with Christ. He was the fulfilment of these. The Sabbath is Gods seal ( as mentioned many times in scripture) His rightful
claim as God and creator. How can someone justify pulling the 4th commandment out of the ten commandments and and deceide not to keep that one command. Would it be ok to not keep "thou shalt not Murder",or say "thou shalt no commit adultery"
its that one ok not to keep. You can try and explain it away anyway you like. The facts are as they stand.Sunday keeping is a product of man,not Gods plan for us.
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Woe to us? |
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Matt 23:13
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No and very much so. The 7 Woes (actually 8 as you stated) are and admonition to Christian leaders of 2000 years ago. However you can definitly apply it today and learn from them. I will take them one by one and explain.
Woe 1) "You shut the kingdom of heaven in mens faces." How many dirty, smelly, unkept or drunk persons enter into the church who are turned away from the church or the fellowship of the church? v. 13-14
Woe 2)(this is considered by many to be a woe) "They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers."
the needy are still being oppressed in todays society. Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47
Woe 3) "You travel over land and sea to win a single convert,..." Some converts are taught to keep their focus on the rules and works but miss God and the idea of grace altogether. This makes them as legalistic as those who taught them. Also many of the leaders of that day sought out new converts more to gain merit than to lead those to Christ. v.15
Woe 4) to the blind guides. "You say, if anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing......"
The leaders of those days encouraged lieing and taught them that an oath was more binding than your word. Blind guides place their focus on the wrong things. v. 15-22.
Woe 5) "You give a tenth of your spices... but you neglect the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faithfulness." The Pharisees would strain out the a small sin such as not tithing the right amount but would then wallow the camel (gross ethical sins,lack of mercy, etc.) How many do you know who focus on the trivial things but ignore the important matters? v. 23-24
Woe 6) You clean the outside of the cup but on the inside they are full of greed and self indulgence." Cleansing the outside of the cup refers to traditional ritual purification. They made these rituals conspicuous. These people appear religious on the outside but inside the focus is on purely self. v. 25-26
Woe 7) "You are like white washed tombs"...on the outside people can appear to be righteous but on the inside they are vindictive, unforgiving, selfish, and mean spirited.
v. 27-28
Woe 8) "You build tombs for the prophets......." The Pharisees made a great show of honoring the prophets their ancestors murdered, swearing they would of never done it but they were when they were while the were stoning and putting to death those who preached the gospel of Jesus Christ. These people see what one person does and say they would never do it but they end up doing the same thing. v 29-32
(all verses taken from the New International Version.)
All of the things that Jesus admonished them about are quite alive in our churches today. I think that there is definitly something to learn here and they can be applied to our lives today. Jesus gives us here examples of the way Satan can sneak up and devour us without us knowing it. What are our true motives today for the things we do? |
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How about common sense? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Dear gentlemen,
I have found your discourse extremely interesting. Allow me to add a view items in favor of common sense. I too, believe that children are among the greatest gifts which our Lord has bestowed upon us. I also feel that there is no situation in which abortion is anything less than the murder of one of the greatest gifts from the Lord. However, I believe that the original question dealt with what the Bible said in terms of birth control. I will make the assumption that this is referring to artificial birth control such as a physical or hormonal method rather than "natural birth control" of abstaining during "fertile periods".
To begin with the obvious, birth control as we know it was not available during biblical times and thus it could not be mentiones in the bible. However, if we look at this from a cultural perspective we are looking at two totally different things. In Biblical times, society was set up as a farming culture. Thus, with the addition of more children, the farmer would prosper more as there would be more people to till the land. Today, in our industrial-based society, more children mean more mouths to feed and I mean that very literally. For example. the Vatican has decreed that artificial birth control methods should not be used as they prevent God's children from being born(my words). In many South American countries where the populations of Catholics are extremely high, most couples do not use birht control. Many children are born and there is no food and very little clean water for them. They are so poor that much of the food they eat is collected daily from garbage dumps. Thus, many of these children die early in life because the socio-economic culture cannot support their life.
Sorry I offer no Scripture, but to be honest, I do not know any passages which deal with this matter since we are not talking about murder(abortion) but rather the prevention of a pregnancy.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Peace
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Can man refuse God's invitation? |
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Luke 14:16
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Yes Sam, but the problem with jumping off a fence is that you often can only see things from one side! As for a verse with invitation and election, how about Mat. 22:14? Now, I know you will ‘elect' to interpret this verse in another way; because, Mat. 22:14 CAN'T be talking about election or else election wouldn't work. But, in an effort to defend my position why don't we go over the entire passage.
Mat. 22:1-14:
1 And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, saying,
2 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son,
Jesus compares this parable to the kingdom of heaven, so that would suggest that the king represents GOD and/or Heaven or Eternal Blessing.
3 and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage feast: and they would not come.
Bidden is translated in NASB, "invited." Those that ‘were invited' would have been the Jews. Notice that those invited, ‘would not come" implies that those invited made the choice. ‘Servants
could be the apostles or perhaps the Holy Spirit (HS is a servant, or a worker for, the kingdom of heaven, so this doesn't necessarily suggest inferiority to GOD; because, He is not specifically mentioned, and all three members of the Trinity are mutually subjected to one another.) either way it doesn't effect the interpretation of the passage.
4 Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have made ready my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage feast.
Bidden is translated in NASB, "invited." The symbolism suggest reality with the marriage feast represent the marriage supper of the Lamb(debatable, not essential to the meaning).
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise;
6 and the rest laid hold on his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them.
Notice that ‘they' made light of it; the passage says nothing about them being made to make light of it by another source.
7 But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
Possible judgement Jesus spoke about coming upon Jerusalem? A.D. 70, no stone will be left upon another.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy.
Bidden is translated in NASB, "invited."
9 Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast.
Bid is translated in NASB, "invite."
10 And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests.
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
Notice, this could not signify election, because, GOD's election must be perfect; no one extra could be invited in, so the most likely interpretation is that the feast includes everyone who was invited, but those who chose (themselves) not to put on wedding clothes were not welcome.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
The same description Jesus gives the ‘lake of fire' were those who are not in Christ go for eternal damnation. (Please continue to the next note!)
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You shall not Murder, then told too?? |
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Not Specified
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EX20:13 You shall not murder. A command from God. Then the people get out of control in Ex 32:27 He said to them, "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.' "
Question is Why would God Say not to Murder then turn around and tell them too? |
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You shall not Murder, then told too?? |
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OT general
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EX20:13 You shall not murder. A command from God. Then the people get out of control in Ex 32:27 He said to them, "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.' "
Question is Why would God Say not to Murder then turn around and tell them too? |
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You shall not Murder, then told too?? |
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OT general
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IMHO, "murder" is an attitude of the heart. It is the attitude that one will "be like God" and determine life or death on their own. When God commands Israel to kill, then Israel is not guilty of murder just as capital punishment or war does not equate to murder. By ordering Israel to kill, God bears all responsibility for the loss of life, not Israel. In fact, when Israel failed to obey God's order to kill, they were punished. Think to King Saul and the chastisement he got from Samuel after letting that king live after they conquered that people. (Sorry for the lack of specifics, this is from memory.) |
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Is fear or doubt unforgivable? |
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Mark 3:28
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thank you for your concerns but the original question was if you commit suicide will you go to heaven.the answer is no! it is given to man once to die then the Judgement.once you are dead and if you die in your sins then you are in big trouble.suicide is murder of yourself ,the Temple of the Holy Spirit 1corrin 3:17.sin, while you live, is able to be confessed and forgiven and cleansed but also read.heb 10:38 dont draw back into sin.i am saying if you are alive no sin is to great that it cant be forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit.YIC |
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Can one who commits suicide be saved? |
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Ex 20:13
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you are mistaken brother .You have jumped to the end of the chapter. look at the beginning .Verse one.it says no more condemnation if you are in Christ. If that is the case, WHY are they committing suicide?they are free from torment. then why are they tormented to take a life and destroy the temple of the Holy Spirit.Heb 10:38.is it because they dont believe the scripture? And that Christ has supplied all their needs according to His riches in Glory. Philipians 4:19. if that is the case they must be unbelievers of the word of God and think that things are impossible for God to do.math 19:26. All things are possible.deut 7:9. my God is a Faithful God.deut 30:9 clearly states Choose life!How do we know what the Lord has for our children.If we kill our linage doesnt that make us a murderer? Reverlations 21:8 just as adam?YIC. |
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Can one who commits suicide be saved? |
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Ex 20:13
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Yes, one can commit suicide and still be saved.
One can commit any sin and still be saved. Read through the Old and New Testament. Read James the believers were committing murder, Wow.
Check out the Romans 8 the last few verses. |
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What is sin? |
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Col 3:9
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I’m pleased with the flow of our discussion so far, Lifer. I started with a rather speculative question on the nature of regenerate man and we’ve moved to the more foundational subject of sin. Thank you for hanging in there, and I thank you for the time you took to give such and extended answer. By God’s grace we’ll continue to make progress.
I hope, after we come to one mind on the more foundational issues underlying my first question, we can get back to my first question.
Understanding what sin is is important because it is that for which the Lord Jesus came to save his people from. It is that for which the wage of death is paid. It is that which separates us from our God. (I wax eloquent.) And I agree with you that what ever sin is, it is both internal (in our hearts) and external (in our words, gestures and deeds). But what is sin?
What makes sin sin? The same could be said of anything. What makes a thing a thing? In order for something to be a thing it has to fit into certain categories or else it ceases to be one thing and becomes another thing. In order for something to be a dog it has to have certain characteristics or else it’s a cat or a cow, or a hairy man on all fours.
In your answer you define two things, sin and sins (or sinning), and I agree with much of what you said about both. But they are two different things, and I think it becomes confusing. In your definitions "sins" is not the plural of sin nor "sinning" its verb form.
I’ve come to accept a biblical definition that will appreciate, capture and combine your two things into one. It's not one I've developed; it's been around for a long time. What makes sin sin, be it in the heart in the form of unbelief or be it overt, is the Law of God. Sin is any lack of conformity to or transgression of the Law of God. It is lack of conformity to or transgression of the Law of God to not believe in Jesus. It is also lack of conformity to or transgression of the Law of God to murder a man. Even in a most simplistic understanding the law does not deal with overt acts only, because it says do not covet, which is totally a matter of the heart.
Understand, Lifer, that this definition doesn't mean you have to throw out everything you wrote. I just wish you to consider that the Law of God is internal as well as external and that it makes unbelief (as fundamental as it is) a sin as well. So we have one definition to cover both unbelief and other wrong thoughts and deeds. God says repent and believe the gospel. To not conform to or transgress this command is sin.
This definition can be found in the letter our present discussion has taken us, I John. I John 3: 4 says, "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (NKJV) You will note, Lifer, that this would be your definition of "sins" not "sin." |
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What is sin? |
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Col 3:9
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Hi Lionstrong,
Wow, you do wax eloquent. Thanks for the response. I read your response three times and, unfortunately, I'm still not sure what you are getting at. I do agree with the law of God part but sin was around way before the law. Satan rebelled and sinned. Adam and Eve sinned. The people in Noah's day sinned. And we all know that Noah was declared righteous before the law was ever given. But I still do see a differentation between sins that are committed and the sin of unbelief that causes us to commit sin. We can discuss sin singular and sins plural til the cows come home but, in the end, we are probably arguing semantics. 1 John 3:4 is talking about sins of commision. But scripture also says that 'whatever is not of faith is sin.'
You may disagree (that is your right) but I still believe that sins come from sin. Jesus took away the sins of the world. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not holding men's sins against them. Why? Because sins caused spiritual death. Sin (unbelief) leads to sinning (whether inward or outward) which results in death. If Christ took away our sins, then why can we still sin? If God wasn't holding our sins against us (because of Christ's death), then why do we still confess them.
The unfortunate thing about all this, brother, is that we focus only on what we DO or DON'T DO. We confess sins we feel that we commit (whether it is hatred or murder) and NEVER talk to God about the unbelievng attitude that was the seed of our sinning. God wants us focused on Him, not our sins, not the law. Only as our mind is renewed through God's Word, can we learn to trust what God says, believe Him, and rest in Him. As we do this, relying totally on God to meet our needs, we walk in the Spirit. And, if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. In Christ, Lifer |
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Proselyte to Judaism as means of salv. |
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OT general
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Salvation is a New Testament concept. Christ's salvation is the answer to man's inability to keep the law imposed upon the Old Testament believer. While Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, God has operated under different covenants during different periods of time. There are those with Bible degrees that can probably expound on this better than me, but I would break the different covenants down into these phases:
1) Adamic covenant: (Genesis 3:8) Adam walked and talked with God freely until Adam sinned and broke the covenant.
2) Noah covenant: (Genesis 6:9, 6:18, 9:11) Noah walked with God. He was a just man in an evil world, so God protected him and his family from the flood. Noah offered burnt offerings to the Lord. (Genesis 8:20) God gave Noah rules that he shall not eat flesh with its blood. Also, God established the death penalty for murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3) Abrahamic Covenant: (Genesis 12:1-3) God sovereignly chose Abraham as the lineage that would ultimately be the lineage of Jesus, God's only Son. Abraham first instituted the tithe to Melchizedek. I note this because the tithe preceeds the "law" and should not be included as "being under the law" when admonished to tithe. God began to add other Abrahamic laws such as circumcision. Abraham continues the sacrifice of animals first instituted by Abel (Genesis 4:4)
4) Mosaic Covenant: God instituted the law beginning with the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17). The Levitical law came into being under the covenant established with Moses. This covenant continued until....
5) Christ's Covenant: (Hebrews 8:6-13) After man had been shown that he was incapable of keeping the law, and that the sacrifice of animals could never redeem sins, it took the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, followed by His glorious resurrection, to redeem us from sin and to conquer death, hell, and the grave.
So...to answer your question..."salvation" is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12), but for those who lived before the New Covenant, they were required to join God in the covenant He had established at the time.
Hope this helps.... |
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Is suicide a sin? |
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Ex 20:13
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I have to disagree with you. I believe that suicide is "murder" as stated in Ex. 20:13, and murder is sin, and the "wages of sin is death", and unconfessed sin will not get anyone into heaven. |
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Is suicide a sin? |
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Ex 20:13
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You say "I believe", but where does the Bible say suicide is murder. That is all I'm interested in not what you believe. The Bible is the final truth not me or you. Next, where does the Bible say that "unconfessed sin will not get anyone to heaven"? If I start tell you what I believe you
can let me know also. So lets stay focus on God's word. Lets also make sure it (The Bible) does say what we say it says about the subject we are talking about.
Now I read the verse you gave me but it doesn't say anything about suicide. So go back and look again. These are not mean words even if they sound mean, this is good for both of us, God Bless.
FisH |
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Is suicide a sin? |
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Ex 20:13
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This question is covered under the topic of "the unpardonable sin", as was offered by too few respondents.
Refering to:
- Mt 12:31-32
- Mk 3:28-30, and
- Lk 12:10,
we see that EVERY/ANY/ALL sin will be forgiven men. Yet there is the unpardonable sin that will not be forgiven. So the question boils down to this: "Is suicide the [an?] unpardonable sin? The answer to this comes from the meaning of the gospel.
As is often the case, we have here an APPARENT contradiction in scripture. "Every sin forgiven, yet not every sin forgiven". APPARENT, that is, untill we understand what scripture is saying. The answer is revealed by seeing that there is one and only one way to be saved - it is by Jesus' work on Calvary (Jn 14:6). Understanding the power of His blood, we realize that it is weak towards nothing. How, then, can there be something "unforgivable"? Answer: By refusing to let that blood wash us. The blasphemy against the Spirit, then, is the moment that the Spirit tells us that "Jesus died as the propitiation for our sins", and we respond by saying "No, not true [Mk 3:30]". The Spirit offers us salvation, but we call Him a liar. We have blasphemed the Spirit, we won't allow Him to wash us in His blood, we are not washed, and therefore we are not saved. In light of the true meaning of the gospel, there is NO contradiction in these verses.
So I leave it to you to consider whether suicide [or divorce, or murder, or etc. etc. etc.) is blaspheming the Spirit, within the context of the gospel revealed in the wholeness of scripture. Your answer is a function of the degree of revelation you have regarding the gospel.
Peace,
Saint |
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Is suicide a sin? |
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Ex 20:13
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Hmmm, well the way I see it suicide is in fact "taking a life" and taking a life is "murder". I do know from the Bible that God can and will forgive murder or any other sin, but it is our part to repent and ask for forgiveness...and a person who committs suicide can't do either. Are you saying in your 2nd comment that you believe that a christian can live in sin and still go to heaven??? I think not, based on tons of verses, like :1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:3-10, 2 Peter 2:4-end of chapter, just to name a few. There are way too many verses to list here about the fact that as a christian we cannot continue in sin and be saved. Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you have said...I am not offended in any way about your comments...you are right, it is good for both of us to have to DIG to get the truth...that is all I want, God's Truth...not anyone's opinion. |
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Selfish or Self-interest? |
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Phil 1:23
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Dear Lionstrong, I gave up Kant a long time ago :-) A man devoid of self is a shell. I do believe that God enjoys the many 'flavors' of His people, and loves each of us individually, complete with the 'self' part. Otherwise, we would be lifeless. Self-interest denotes self-awareness, while selfishness would mean self-focus. I do not think that Paul was 'being' either, but proposing a hypotheses. I do not think that he was truly 'torn' by this question. He was telling the saints in Philippi the correct attitude to hold. Of course, everybody wants to go to heaven! But the only way to hurry that along would be suicide. I am not sure if this would negate my salvation (murder in some eyes), but I cannot imagine God happy about taking our own life! So, Paul was not seriously suggesting pursuing death. As to the question about serving our Lord in heaven; sure we can and will. But, as I said, there are no unsaved in heaven, therefore no evangelism or active Gospel-preaching. We would be denied the ability to participate in the Great Commission. Dear friend, I am not nearly so altruistic as my posting may have sounded :-) But, to speak otherwise would not glorify Christ, so I pray that action will follow my confession. Paul did clearly assert that it is better to serve God here as long as God called him to do so, here and in all his letters. Longing for heaven, to go home to Jesus, is normal for every Christian. But accepting our calling, our situation, and doing our best in faith for the duration of our sojourn is what God wants.
Blessings, my fellow, in Jesus' name, charis |
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