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The cannonization of Jude |
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Jude
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It was mostly the Aramaic speaking Mid-Eastern churches that did not accept the book of Jude as cannon. Jude was rejected on the grounds that it quoted the book of Enoch in Jude 1:4-5 (which matches Enoch 1:9 word-for-word) and they felt like cannonizing Jude meant they had to accept the book of Enoch as canon as well, which traditionally was not included. Jude also quotes from a book called "The Assumption of Moses" which is also called the Testament of Moses in Jude 1:9, which says "even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!". However, the Tanak references many non-biblical writings that were not accepted as canon, but it only references the fact they exist by alluding to their content, but never quotes them directly as a source like Jude did. Books referenced by the Bible, but not included in the Bible, are...
Book of the Covenant (Ex. 24:7)
Book of the Wars of the Lord (Num 21:14)
Book of Jasher (Josh 10:13, 2 Sam 1:18)
The Book of the Statutes (1 Sam. 10:25);
Book of Samuel the Seer (1 Samuel 10:25, 1 Chr 29:29)
Book of Nathan the Prophet (2 Chr 9:29)
Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41)
The Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chr. 29:29);
Book of Shemaiah the Prophet (2 Chr 12:15)
The Book of Ahijah the Shilonite (2 Chr. 9:29)
Visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chr. 9:29);
Acts of Abijah/Story of Prophet Iddo (2 Chr 13:22)
The Story of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chr. 13:22);
Book of Jehu (2 Chr 20:34)
Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah, the son of Amoz (2 Chr. 26:22);
Sayings of the Seers (?) (2 Chr 33:19)
Book of Enoch (Jude 1:14)
Another apocryphal work is quoted in Jude, but not mentioned by name. May be "The Assumption of Moses". This writing records an account of a dispute between Michael the archangel and satan on the body of Moses. (Jude 1:9)
a missing epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9);
a missing epistle to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16);
Eventually, this list helped bring acceptance to the book of Jude. In the end, most parts of the world accepted all 27 books of the NT based on authorship - anything authored by the first 12 apostles, or under their authority was accepted. Anything not was rejected. Mark was Peter's interpreter, so it was presumed that the gospel of Mark had Peter's approval. Paul was accepted as an apostle based on Peter's comments as such in 1st or 2nd Peter, Luke's comments, and Paul's own comments. The writings of Luke (Luke and Acts) were accepted under Paul's authority as an apostle, in that he was part of Paul's ministry. This is why the latter part of Acts focuses on Paul more than any of the other apostles. There were other writings of early believers and even other gospels from people during the first century, but they were not included in scripture based on the fact that they were not written either by apostles or men under an apostle's ministry.
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The cannonization of Jude |
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Jude
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The reason II Peter, Jude, II and III Jhn, and Rev. were not accepted into the canon is because the church fathers had doubts about the content of the said books. |
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The cannonization of Jude |
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Jude
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Can you cite any source(s) to prove your assertion that 5 books of the New Testament were not accepted into the cannon of scripture? Apparently they were accepted, because they are now included and have been for centuries. I am not saying your information is incorrect. I merely ask can you cite references to books or journal articles to back up your assertion? If so, please give us the references here on the forum.
Anyone with a keyboard can make generalizations, assumptions and assertions, but where is the scholarly support for the idea that these 5 books were not included in the cannon of scripture?
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The cannonization of Jude |
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Jude
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Roverjbh99 (Josh): A few posts ago this old Arkansas Razorback mildly scolded you for failure to cite any references in regard to the number of books in the Apocrypha. Now we face the same dilemma regarding your post in which, without any documentation, you say: "The reason 2 Peter, Jude, 2 and 3 John and Revelation were not accepted into the canon is because the church fathers had doubts about the content of the said books.".....In all candor, Josh, I feel obligated for the sake of keeping the forum as credible as possible, to join with our friend JVH in his plea for authenticating references. "Church fathers" covers an enormously broad spectrum. Not a few so-called church fathers were, in fact, notorious heretics. Among them was Marcion, who for example, in the early second century, created a canon consisting solely of edited versions of Luke and some of Paul's Letters. He rejected the Old Testament entirely. (This account excerpted from Harper's Bible Dictionary). --Hank |
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"Preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." |
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Jude 1:1
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Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
"preserved
"Assurance is the believer's full conviction that, through the work of Christ alone, received by faith, he is in possession of a salvation in which he will be eternally kept. And this assurance rests only upon the Scripture promises to him who believes."
Bibliography Information
Scofield, C.I. "Scofield Reference Notes on Jude 1". "Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)".
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/
1917.
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"Preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." |
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Jude 1:1
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'Preserved' (Jude 1:1)
Oxford Annotated RSV.. "God has 'called' the Christians, shown them His love, and keeps them for the coming of Jesus Christ."
Zondervan's NASB Study Bible.. "'kept for Jesus Christ.' He who holds the whole universe together (see Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3) will see that God's children are kept in the faith and that they reach their eternal inheritance (see John 6:37-40; 17:11-12; 1 Peter 1:3-5)."
Ryrie's Study Bible says, "Jude addresses the called; i.e., all Christians who have been called to a knowledge of God through Christ. They are beloved in God and kept for Jesus Christ at His second coming."
Nelson's NKJV Study Bible states, "'called': This is the primary description of Jude's readers: They had been chosen by God to represent Him in this world."
MacArthur's NKJV Study Bible comments, "'called.' As always in the epistles, this refers not to a general invitation to salvation, but to God's irresistible, elective call to salvation (cf. Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:23,24; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:13,14). This call yields: 1) fellowship with Christ (1 Cor. 1:9); 2) peace (1 Cor. 7:15); 3) freedom (Gal. 5:13); 4) a worthy walk (Eph. 4:1); 5) hope (Eph. 4:4); 6) holiness (1 Peter 1:15); 7)blessing (1 Peter 3:9); and 8) eternal glory (1 Peter 5:10). Cf. "grace of our God" (v.4)."
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"'preserved'. See note on v. 24. God not only initiates salvation but He also completes it through Christ, thus preserving or keeping the believer secure for eternal life (cf. John 6:37-44; 10:28-30; 17:11,15; Rom. 8:31-39; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 7:25; 9:24; 1 Peter 1:3-5)."
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Note on verse 24.. "The power of Christ would sustain the sincere believer from falling to the temptation of apostacy (cf. Job 42:2; Psalm 37:23,24; 121:3; Jer. 32:17; Matt. 19:26; Luke 1:37; John 6:39,40,44; 10:27-30; Eph. 3:20)." |
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to thuose who are called, |
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Jude 1:1
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what is the diffrent's between being called or sepeated,from other men and women |
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to thuose who are called, |
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Jude 1:1
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Called, when you are being called by God. When you are spiritually searching for God's way and doing his will. Following what is good and not evil.
Separated, as soon as you start doing God's will you change and become different from the rest of the people in the world.
We are separated mentally from the world, thinking only about God and Jesus Christ, changing daily.
Physically we are still in this world, waiting for Christ to return.
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to thuose who are called, |
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Jude 1:1
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Scripture ... Rom 10:13, Jude 1:1 ...
Adding to Martha's answer
First we are called
Second we call (Rom 10:13)
Third we are separated
Hope this helps,
Searcher |
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to thuose who are called, |
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Jude 1:1
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Romans 8:28 (NKJV)
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
*************
In the last clause of verse 28, God's purpose, not His foreknowledge, is first in the order of the chain of verbs occurring in vv. 28-30. The order in these verses is:
1) God's purpose
2) God foreknew
3) He presdestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son
4) He called
5) He justified
6) He glorified
(Hopefully this verse will not be translated "back into the Greek" to the point where it will no longer mean what the words say. You can play Greek scholar all you want to, but I will take the English translation here at face value. It's amazing how much light the Bible sheds on the experts and the commentaries.) |
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A look at our Master according to Jude? |
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Jude 1:1
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Who out there has access to the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, Jay P.Green, Sr. Editor and would like to look at the book of Jude with me? |
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A look at our Master according to Jude? |
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Jude 1:1
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Greetings Ray!
I don't if I have that specific text, but I have access to quite a few Greek texts. I would be happy to interact!
Your Brother in Christ,
Tim Moran |
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A look at our Master according to Jude? |
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Jude 1:1
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Hi Tim, Thank you very much. I'd like to see if you agree with the literal rendering of my copy
of what is probably the TR text. I really have no knowledge of the various texts. I believe this
text would be what the NKJ would use.
1) There are three places where I need your expertise and input. First, verse 4 where it speaks of denying "the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ" as per the NKJ. Or, NASB, "and deny
our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
I am choosing as my preference the NKJ and the TR text. The text has an extra word in it, "God",
which comes after the word translated Master in the Interlinear versions that I have. So the literal
translation is rendered, "and denying the only Master, *God, even our Lord Jesus Christ." I prefer this reading.
2) The second place is the next verse where it talks about "in the second place".:) There seems to be some significance to a first place and a subsequent second place [time] where the people or
angels had forsaken their good beginnings and did not keep themselves in the love of God.
This verse has the word "Lord" in the translations and the marginal note says that some manuscripts
render it as "Jesus". (In passing, I would say that this verse would be of interest to our friend who believes that Joshua was Jesus.) But of interest to me is the rendering in my Interlinear copy of verse 5b, "...in the second place He destroyed the ones not believing." This rendering puts an extra pronoun which would go well in comparison to verse 6. I prefer this rendering with its extra pronoun.
3) The third place where I would welcome your input is where the words, "through Jesus Christ
our Lord" is not found in my TR copy but is found in the NU text. Here my preference is with the
NASB and the NU text. Jude, verse 25, "to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord,
be glory..."
I welcome your comments.
From the heart, Ray
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A look at our Master according to Jude? |
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Jude 1:1
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Greetings Ray!
These are the fun questions! :-)
1) Let me give the literal rendering of some of the Greek texts:
a) The UBS Text says, "...and the only master and lord of us Jesus Christ denying."
b) The Majority Text says, "...and the only master God and lord of us Jesus Christ denying."
c) The TR reads the same as the Majority text.
I don't really think that there is a difference in meaning with either reading, but the UBS reading appears to be the older of the two with 'theos' being added to clarify the word 'master'. The earliest support for the UBS reading is about the 3rd century, while the earliest support for the TR/Majority reading is about the 6th century.
2) 'Jesus' is the best attested reading by far and the hardest reading. Scholars usually give precedence to harder readings because the tendency of scribes was to tone down sayings, not make them more difficult. But, this saying is considered so difficult that most go with Lord instead of Jesus. Personally, I would go with Jesus as does the Net Bible.
The last phrase is pretty much the same in all of the texts, except for the placement of the word 'once for all'. The last phrase reads:
"...a people out of land of Egypt having saved the second time those who did not believe He destroyed." I'm not sure which pronoun you were referring, but there really isn't a pronoun in the text of the last clause. 'Those who' is a definite article connected to the participle 'not believing' and 'He' is implied in the verb because of it's number. There isn't any actual pronouns in this text.
3) On this one, the evidence wasn't even strong enough for the TR reading to be included in the textual apparatus. So, I would go with the UBS and NASB on this one.
I hope this helped in some way!
Your Brother in Christ,
Tim Moran
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Can fallen angels repent? |
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Jude 1:6
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What passages in the Scriptures give clear indication as to whether or not any fallen angels are capable of repentance? It seems fairly obvious to me that they can not repent, but I'm confident that the Bible speaks more clearly on this than my "confidence" does? What do the Scriptures say on this? |
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Can fallen angels repent? |
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Jude 1:6
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Jude 6 states that God has kept the fallen angels in 'eternal bonds' under darkness for the judgment of the great day.. Since angels are spiritual in nature, then I would conclude that the fallen angels cannot 'repent' or be reconciled to God as we can be. Jesus Christ made it possible for us to reconciled to Himself and to His Father in heaven. The fallen angels sealed their fate eternally when they rebelled against God. |
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Can fallen angels repent? |
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Jude 1:6
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Also, 2 Peter 2:4 supports the premise in Jude 1:6, "reserving the angels for judgment".. |
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Believer's authority and the devil. |
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Jude 1:9
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Does the authority of the believer entitle Christians to bring an abusive condemnation against the devil? Please include scripture reference(s) with your answer. |
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Believer's authority and the devil. |
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Jude 1:9
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JVH0212,
When considering that Michael did not dare to bring a railing judgement against Satan, then it should move us to at least consider if we should. Actually, one may even consider it to be of no purpose if we did. After all, what could we possibly say to or against Satan that would change anything? Do we need to tell him that he is eternally damned when he already knows that? Do we need to say he is a liar when our Lord has already made that perfectly clear? What would we say that Satan doesn't already know or that would make any difference?
I believe it to be highly unwise to attempt to combat Satan without the power of God (as well as a command from God) and I have never seen anywhere in scripture where we should be inclined to do so. We should resist him and even flee from him at appropriate times but we are nowhere commanded to fight this enemy without first calculating the risks involved.
Sam Hughey |
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Believer's authority and the devil. |
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Jude 1:9
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When i encounter i use James 4:7 and Col 3:17 because in this body we are no match. |
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Why the dispute? |
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Jude 1:9
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What was the dispute over Moses' body between Michael and Satan? |
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Why the dispute? |
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Jude 1:9
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Greetings prayon! Excellent question!
The MacArthur NKJV Study Bible states, "'Michael...archangel.' The chief angel of God who especially watches over Israel (Dan. 10:13,21; 12:1) and leads the holy angels (Rev. 12:7). Nowhere else in Scripture is this struggle over the body of Moses mentioned. Michael had to fight with Satan to do God's bidding, as he did on another occasion in Dan. 10:13. 'body of Moses.' Moses died on Mt. Nebo in Moab without having entered the Promised Land and was secretly buried in a place not known to man (Deut. 34:5-6). It would likely be that this confrontation took place as Michael buried Moses to prevent Satan from using Moses' body for some diabolical purpose not stated. Perhaps Satan wanted to use it as an idol, an object of worship for Israel. God sent Michael, however, to be certain it was buried. This account was recorded in the pseudepigraphal Assumption of Moses.."
The Bible Knowledge Commentary (NIV) NT Edition 2 states, "v. 9. The archangel Michael was sent to bury Moses’ body, but according to Jewish tradition (the pseudepigraphical book, The Assumption of Moses), the devil argued with the angel about the body, apparently claiming the right to dispose of it. But Michael, though powerful and authoritative, did not dare dispute with Satan, so he left the matter in God’s hands, saying, The Lord rebuke you! The false teachers Jude spoke of had no respect for authority or for angels. The apostates’ slandering of celestial beings (v. 8) stands in arrogant contrast to the chief angelic being, Michael, who would not dare slander Satan, chief of the fallen angels."
We are sure that the dispute was over the body of Moses and that Michael opposed Satan regarding the destination or burial of it, but we cannot obtain a 'concrete' answer concerning the overall importance or magnitude of this situation, even though I believe that The Bible Knowledge Commentary and the MacArthur Study Bible have provided us with some great insights here.
Nolan! |
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Why the dispute? |
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Jude 1:9
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The body of some commentators view the body of Moses as symbolic, the body of Moses "being intended to represent the Mosiac law and institutions" (Zech 3:1), in the same manner in which modern Christians call the church "the body of Christ". Some also say in the Hebrew books that Satan disputed the burial, claiming the body because of the blood of the Egyptian who Moses slew, and because of the leaders sin at Meribah (Ex 17:5-6, Num 20:5, 8-9). prayon |
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Why the dispute? |
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Jude 1:9
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Nolan ... We don't know why, and I think the "experts" do their best. It was angel vs. angel battle, with at least one an archangel. Satan may of been a former one.
Anyway, Michael knew that he needed God to intervene. So when God got invovled, He buried Moses, in an unknown location.
Steve |
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Why the dispute? |
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Jude 1:9
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Steve,
We do know that God 'intervened' in this situation (Jude 1:9) through the archangel Michael, and God prevailed over Satan in this situation, since only He knows where Moses was buried. As I have stated in a former post, we do not know the magnitude or full scope of this situation, since Satan's motives are not given and there is very little detail here, except for the fact that Michael didn't dare to even slander Satan, being the chief prince of evil.
The "experts" do their best and I have found their reasoning much more sound than mine own in myriad occasions while studying the Bible, Steve! And I will continue to consult them and to offer their 'sound' interpretations to the Forum- some "experts" of which are Presidents of Seminaries and spent many years and many hours of each week studying the Bible.. The credentials of these 'experts' speak for themselves and sure beat any 'credentials' that I, myself, could possibly offer to anyone.. So their interpretations not only command our acknowledgement, but our limited understandings would gain a great boost if we actually agreed with these 'experts' from time to time! I'm not saying that they are always right, but the commentary and guidance of these experts has been formulated and created by people who have levels of specialization that far exceed or outway anything that you or I have achieved. Therefore, we would be 'wise' to consult them and at least listen to them before dismissing them for a 'wild' scheme or speculation, since the 'weight' of the argument of the 'experts' is usually far greater then the 'weight' of speculation.
Nolan |
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My mom is praying to saints for |
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Jude 1:9
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I need help -- I have been trying to tell my mom that she needs only to pray to God (not to the saints too). She feels that the saints will intercede and pray along with her to God. Please help me with any verses/comments you may have. |
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My mom is praying to saints for |
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Jude 1:9
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Did your mother read the bible regularly?
It seems that she is belongs to catholic religion.
I know the reason they make when you tell them that they dont have to pray to Idols and to saints. They are taught that way, it is very hard to change thier tradition. First you pray to God that He will help you explain to your mom that praying except to God is wrong.
Second, you must act as a good Christian so that you mom will realize that you're belongs to a right congregation, your mom should show the fruit of what you believed. If your mom find out that are good she maybe convince that you are belong to a good religion. It was written "good fruit produce good fruit":
Mt 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mt 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
If your mom saw good fruit in you, she cannot comment when start teaching them of what is the right way of praising God.
When you tell her that it is bad to worship an Idol of saints she maybe answers that God look at the heart because in thier heart they will say that it is God they are worshiping and not the graven image that in front of them.
Just tell your mom, that when God say "no" meaning it is "NO" He said:
Ex 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or
any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or
that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water
under the earth:
That means "any graven images" (including the images of the saints)and if God say No it is "NO"
Here is the example of when God say no is "NO"
2Sa 6:5
And David and all the house of Israel played before the
LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood,
even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and
on cornets, and on cymbals.
2Sa 6:6
¶ And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor,
Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took
hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
6.
2Sa 6:7
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah;
and God smote him there for his error; and there he
died by the ark of God.
In those passages very clear that the motive of the man hold the ark is to prevent it to fall to the ground so it will not broken, but he died when he hold the ark. We know that God warning to moses that dont touch the ark and whoever touch it will die. If you analyze the motive of the man is good but God kill that man, because He said dont touch and meaning dont touch.
The motive maybe of your mother is good by putting images and praying to saints. She may tell you it helps her to love God more. But god gave us guidelines how to worship Him not just because we want this kind of worship but we know it is the right way of worshiping God.
In Jude 1:9 mention is made of a contention
between Michael and the devil about the body of
Moses. This dispute is supposed to have had
reference to the concealment of the body of
Moses so as to prevent idolatry.
I hope it would helps.
God bless,
Johnny
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My mom is praying to saints for |
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Jude 1:9
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Scripture ... 1 Tim 2:5 - context vv 1-8.
kel196, greetings
Verse 5 says "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" and the context is prayer.
Hope this helps,
S |
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My mom is praying to saints for |
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Jude 1:9
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kel,
We are told in scripture to pray for one another. When I ask you to pray with me on a particular matter does that violate the principal that Jesus is the one mediator? The saints here or in heaven, just like us are "in Christ". So we and they pray "through him, with him and in him." Hebrews 12:1-2, Rev 5:8;Rev 8:3-5. I think your mother is in good company with the saints.
Emmaus |
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My mom is praying to saints for |
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Jude 1:9
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Hi,
It seems that we both had the same problem.
My mother was Roman Catholic and she asked the Saints of the Church (Catholic), for intercessory prayers.
She already pass the way, and I am sure she is saved, because she was a wonderful person, she love God with all her hearth and she beleived in Jesus and took Him as her savior. She did not read the Bible, because on her days the Roman Catholic Church discourages its grey to read the Bible.
Your mother is not worshipping the Saints and you can be sure she has Faith in God and this God is your God also.
She is not praying to a graven image. You can be sure of that, but you could ask her, anyway.
When she "ask" the Saints for intercessory pray, she is wrong because their are dead, and they will be dead until resurrection, if what we belive is true. But God is good and He reads our hearths.
Thimothy 2:1 (not a good extrapolation)
There is a lot of things we think are wrong in other churches, but His is the judgment. It is true that a corrupted tree will not bring forth good fruit, you are good fruit.
You should glorify your mother and if she is asking for intercession, pray with her, for her and for you. Thanks God that He blessed her with you, and He blessed you with her. Do not judge her. Read the bible with her, even her Roman Catholic Bible, for your surprise, you will find that it is not that different than the Bible you use; in essence, it is the same as our Bible. Do not condem her, take her with you over the Word you love, but show her the same dedication she is showing; be a model for her on your own faith. Do not look on the forms, but on her needs; do not look on the forms, but on her hearth.
Exodus 20:12 Deuteronomy 5:16
Because, you could be trying to change her rituals by your rituals, show her your ways and if you can get a better personal connection than she can do, she will follow you.
May God Bless you and make a blessing of you.
Oscar
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