| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
See notes on Luke 8:13 and Hebrews 6:4 |
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Also try searching existing q and a's for "salvation". |
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I stand firm on John 10:28-30, which I think tells us that if we are truly saved, NO ONE can snatch us from the Father. |
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Is it possible for redeemed people to lose their salvation?
. . . The Bible says no. One who is saved "has everlasting life, and . . . is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24). Eternal life by definition cannot be temporary. It is the present possession of all those who have truly trusted Christ. Romans 8:28-39 reveals clearly that there is nothing in the universe that can separate the elect from the love of God. The One who chose to save you "is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy" (Jude 24).
. . . According to Scripture, people who profess to know Christ at one time but later deny Him were never really saved to begin with. First John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us." A true believer will never depart from the faith (Philippians 1:6), so those who do so are revealing that they were never truly saved (John 8:31; Hebrews 3:14).
. . . Even true Christians can sin, however, and because of that may lack assurance of salvation (Psalm 51:12). A failure to grow spiritually can also rob us of the confidence that we are God's children (2 Peter 1:9). But anyone indwelt by the Holy Spirit is secure eternally, because He is the "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:14).
. . . For further study:
John MacArthur, Eternal Security (tape series). © 2000 Grace to You |
| |
Who wrote the letter to the Hebrews? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Who wrote this letter?
My old AV calls Hebrews "The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews," but no one seems to ascribe it to Paul anymore. I have heard Barnabas suggested as the author, and seem to recall the argument was convincing (but I didn't take any notes). Is anyone aware of sound reasons to ascribe this letter to one particular author?
|
| |
Who wrote the letter to the Hebrews? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I do not know the arguments. I have also heard that Mark might have possibly been the author. It is certainly a "heavenly" letter as are Paul's are, but it's style doesn't seem to me -- at least in its English translations -- to be similar to either Paul or Mark. So, I suppose that's why it could be Barnabas or someone else.
I believe its canonicity was sometimes disputed over the centuries and I'm not sure, but I wonder if this authorship question could be part of the reason. This shouldn't be a hindrance though. There are many books in the Old Testament for whom we are also unsure as to who was the author.
Anyway, Hebrews is properly a canonical book and, being part of Scripture, was therefore ultimately written through "whoever" by the Holy Spirit. So God, being the ultimate author, should give us assurance as to its truths. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But how do you respond to the person who says, "Yes, no one can snatch them out of the Father's hand, but that doesn't mean they can't leave of their own freewill"? |
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Sorry JVH0212, but I can't seem to leave you alone. Please don't put ideas into passages. Read them for what they are.
Following are the verses you quoted with my interpretations:
John 5:24 is simply saying that those that are saved have everlasting life. It does not say anything about not being able to lose that salvation.
Romans 8:28-39 is talking about external things will not be able to separate us from God.
Jude 24 - Yes, God is able to keep us from stumbling but if we refuse the help then it's our problem.
1 John 2:19 - is talking about how we will know it is the last hour (v 18). I believe it's kind of saying that we will be suprised when we see friends and family turn away from God because they were not saved because if they were saved then they would not have turned their backs on Jesus. Note that verse 24 says "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father." Note the "If it does". This implies that it is possible that to turn your back on what you once knew. And if we do keep what we heard in us, what will happen? Verse 25 - "And this is what he promised us -- even eternal life."
You are again putting ideas in Phil 1:6 that are not there. Read it again. It is saying that God will not bail out on us and will keep his offer of salvation until the end.
Did you even read John 8:31? Jesus is telling the Jews that believed in him (therefore saved) that If they hold to His teaching, they are really his disciples. In otherwords, Jesus is telling this group of saved people that if they continue belive they will be saved which implies that if they stop believing, then they will not be saved.
Hebrews 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." Notice the "IF"
If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to prove that it's possible for a person to renounce their own salvation.
Psalm 51:11-12 "Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me." The author of this psalm obviously thought he could lose God.
2 Peter 5-10 is telling us to make every effort to make sure we keep the "good qualities" and that IF we do these things we will not fall.
Eph 1:14 - Yes, the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. Jesus died for our sins. Our salvation is guaranteed (as long as we do not renounce that salvation). In otherwords, if you take a pop (or soda) bottle to the store they will give you the deposit - it's guranteed unless of course you decide to throw that bottle out the window on the way. When you get to the store, you'll have nothing.
And one more verse I'll add:
2 Peter 2:20 "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."
It doesn't matter who the "they" are (in this case he's talking about false teachers) it's more important to notice that the "they" were saved becase they escaped the corruption of the world thru Jesus and then lost that salvation (entangled and overcome in the ways of the world) and will pay dearly for this.
|
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Yes, a person could renounce their salvation - although I don't know why one would.
Please see my posting to JVH0212 starting "Sorry JVH0212, but I can't ..." for biblical references |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I must disagree with you. I think a person could renounce their salvation - although I don't know why one would.
Please see my posting to JVH0212 starting "Sorry JVH0212, but I can't ..." for biblical references |
| |
COULD A BELIEVER LOSE THEIR SALVATION? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Your interpretation of the various passages quoted in your message, I can tell, are your honest and sincere beliefs. Thousands, even millions, of people share your interpretation and beliefs. In fact at one time I believed exactly as you do. Whether I have become a traitor or a convert is something we won't know until we sit down in that big Bible class in the sky and are taught by the Author Himself.
. . . I got sidetracked if I was trying to get you to change those beliefs. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." My focus should have been on sharing my understanding of the doctrine and of the Scriptures I used, leaving you to decide for yourself -- not to get you to agree with me. Your patient, reasonable reply has helped me to get back on track.
Thank you for your patient, conscientious, well written reply. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Well, I was just wondering what your reply was. I do not believe a person could renounce their salvation. After all, the verse does say "no one" can snatch them out; and if you try to leave, then you are merely trying to snatch yourself out. If someone else can't pull you out, how could you possibly manage to jump out on your own?
Of course, you don't know why anyone would renounce their salvation because those who are saved have a new heart and they are glad to be saved and grateful. The person who renounces their salvation merely shows evidence he was never saved to begin with.
But anyway, I have also had this conversation with someone else somewhere around this forum and you can read that as well, if you like. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
To answer why a person would renounce there salvation, I guess I'd have to say because we are forgetfull people when it comes to all the great things God has done for us. It could be really easy for a saved person to forget the love of God and be drawn back to the temptations of the world. To give an Old Testament example, look at the exodus from Egypt. Look at all God did for the Hebrews and look at how many times they still complained and wanted to turn back. I believe many would have turned back if it were not for Moses and Aaron consistantly reminding them of God's promise and Love. The same is true today. We need to encourage one another and remind each other daily of God's love so that no one has the opportunity to turn back to the world. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Wow! NO ONE can snatch us out of the Father's hand -- that sounds like He has a pretty good grip on us; but somehow we can just happen to "somehow" forget our way into hell. Very strange way to look at it, indeed! |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
To put that verse in context, Jesus is talking to non-believers and telling them that there is nothing you can do to snatch the saved out of the Father's hand. It's telling us that as long as we chose to believe then nothing can prevent us from being saved.
2 Peter 2:20 states very clearly that it is possible to lose your salvation.
|
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Well, that's not what the verse actually says, but I suppose you can believe whatever you like. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I'd love to hear your interpretation of what you think 2 Peter 2:20 is saying then. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
There would be no point, because you would just proceed to tell me that what is in the text is really not there, read your own meaning into it, and then insist that the context supported your view, even though it clearly didn't.
I believe you are more committed to your own views than to the text. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I assume then because you refuse to interpret the verse then you are admitting that it does not hold with what you believe to be true so you just ignore it. That's a real good way of studying the Bible.
If I assume wrong, then please tell me how you would interpret it. I really would like to know because I can't seen any other legitimate way. I'm not saying there isn't another way, just that I don't see it. Also, for your information, I do think that there are many verses (ideas) that can be interpreted multiple ways and I am open to them. |
| |
Snatch? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Snatching? Snap decisions to turn away from salvation in Jesus? Great semantics war! If I read this tit-for-tat correctly, one of you (I forget which) states that you cannot lose your salvation, because if you lost it you never had it. The other is saying that losing your salvation is a theoretical possiblity, but no one would purposely throw it away. It started with 'snatching.' Aside from the 'theological, theoretical, emotional' side of things, I would like to interject a few comments. 'Snatch' implies that Satan has the ability to steal you away when God is not looking. This is impossible! As to the eternal viewpoint, from God's eyes. We can't know what will happen. God has not revealed to us who is saved, and who is not. So, talking about a hypothetical 'saved, then backslidden, then repentant, then...' and trying to identify a person's eternal 'situation' is academic and moot. As to throwing away your faith, it DOES seem possible, but not like, "Here I am, a servant of God... but wait! All of a sudden I feel like I don't want to be saved anymore!" Deception, pride, and subtle change of direction CAN lead a saved person away from God. In the most extreme cases, maybe even to the point of denying the Holy Spirit. I think this is very difficult, nigh-impossible, but the Bible does say the possibility exists. How many have 'fallen' in this manner (if any) is known only to God. I am at peace with this. It satifies the Bible. Satan cannot 'snatch,' but he can whittle pretty well. There are too many practical examples of real-life Christians who have forsaken their faith, and sometimes fallen into abominable sin to discount the possibility of blaspheming the Spirit. Tell me what you think? I must go. Real life beckons :-) In Christ Jesus. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
That's funny. I told you EXPLICITLY that I believe you care more about your own opinion rather than what the text actually says.
Now, you write back "assuming" that I will not discourse for some other reason.
You took my explicit statements and twisted them around.
I will gladly discourse about any text; but I will no longer discourse with you because you not only turn Scripture inside out as it pleases you, but you turn my own words around. You take things as you like to see them.
I do not believe you are sincere, but merely want to bait me into a conversation where you can expound your own views. So forget it. |
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I'm sorry you feel that way. You could not be further from the truth. How can one learn if they are not open to other ideas and willing to discuss their points?
And yes, you told me EXPLICITLY that you believe I care more about... but you were wrong. If I left it alone there, you would have again made a false interpretation. If you noted in my posting, I said I assumed that was the case and also said that I may have assumed wrong.
|
| |
Snatch? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Thanks for your response charis. I am taking the point that it is possible for a saved person to renounce their salvation while my friend bjanko believes that would be impossible. I've asked bjanko how he would interpret 2 Peter 2:20, but as of yet, he refuses to. I would also like to hear your interpretation though. I've read many of your postings and respect your opinions.
|
| |
I agree with you 100 percent. But... |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Well, I'm sorry if I have offended you. I do not mean to assume anything. But I also do not see that there is much to be gained in discussing the predestination/freewill issue with you, since our feet our firmly planted on opposite sides. Maybe on some other issue, we will be able to discuss things more fruitfully. Many regards. |
| |
Snatch? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
I think, as far as I understand you, that I agree. There is a difference between not being really saved and drawing near or then turning away from God on the one hand; and being truly saved and not being willing or able to turn away.
Just my 2 cents in reply to you, though this is becoming a wearying topic. :) |
| |
When are we saved? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
When are we saved? This seems to be the axis of the merry-go-round. I guess from God's point of view that we are saved from the eternal past to the eternal (glorious) future. Here, where I am now, I tend to think of my salvation experience starting (initially) when the gospel was presented to my heart for appraisal. Then there is the point at which I confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord of my life and Lord of all. (Here, there are many 'formulae' some of which are just plain legalistic and based on the traditions of man, and some that smack of 'cheap grace,' i.e. "After you repeat after me this little prayer, you are saved, born again, filled-with-the-Spirit, forever sinless, and going-to-heaven-no matter-what." I find these both a bit extreme. (Especially when someone is counting the 'decisions-for-Christ' for boasting in their pulpits and newsletters) Then there is the 'battle,' the 'race,' the 'walk.' I like to call this the Christian life. I consider this the present-day pilgrimage, the "...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;" of Philippians 2:12. I consider this to be a valid portion of our salvation experience. I understand that to someone who considers salvation to be an absolute in God's eyes, this smacks of 'works,' but the Bible does seem to say that we participate, though certainly all glory goes to God in Christ Jesus. In this life, I think you are right, a saved person can 'attempt' to renounce their salvation, and theoretically, could 'achieve' it by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Indeed, many 'backsliders' or 'fallen' would appear to have accomplished the feat, at least on the surface. The reality is beyond what we can know for certain. Personally, I prefer to deal with real, normal people in the here-and-now. To tell them that they are (maybe) elected, but you have to wait until you die to find out for sure, is destabilizing for many people. It gives them no hope to overcome the sin that dogs them. They can say, "I guess I'm not saved after all," and give up serving the Lord. It also makes those who consider themselves to be 'relatively' sinless to get arrogant. On the other hand, the 'popular' Christianity of the day proclaims salvation to those who have shown absolutely no "fruit of repentance." They say, "I'm a baby on Daddy's knee," and never even attempt to grow in Christ. They continually sin from every 'orifice' of their being, at the same time being told by 'feel-good ministers' that they are perfect in every way. I tend to be wary of people who make 'decisions for Christ' almost every weekend. After all that 'preaching,' I will answer your question. It appears that 2 Peter 2:20 and the context are speaking of those who have believed in Jesus, but returned to their old ways, becoming even worse than before knowing Jesus. Though I agree that it speaks of 'renouncing' their salvation, only God knows if they truly 'lost' it. "But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or' Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." Romans 10:6,7 NASB Instead, I simply try to pursue Christ, speak Christ, and portray Christ. I pray this helps any who read. In Jesus' name.
|
| |
Snatch? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
Okay.... I'll risk it, I'll take the plunge, although I know I'll hate my self for it later. But in short, 2 Pet. 2:2 says it would have better if they had not turned after having "known the way of righteousness." It never says they were saved. One can know about Christ, and even believe He is who He says He is -- but that is not salvation. And one can turn from that way of righteousness. But when one truly takes that assent to the truth about Christ and trusts their very eternal destiny's to it, then they are truly saved; one can only do that when God has regenerated them. They cannot fall away from that state of true trust in Christ. But anyone can turn away from knowing about Christ and even agreeing that that knowledge is true. Anyone can turn away from the "way of righteousness." They just can't turn away if God has actually rescued them and given them the faith that saves their soul. |
| |
When are we saved? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
But I would again add, the verse is summed up in the next verse were this state is referred to as the "way of righteousness." I do not see that "way of righteousness" and being saved from hell are necessarily the same thing.
On the way to salvatiion, you confront this righteous way; but not all necessarily complete the journey to where they are securely saved. |
| |
When are we saved? |
|
|
|
Hebrews
|
| |
But I would again add, the verse is summed up in the next verse were this state is referred to as the "way of righteousness." I do not see that "way of righteousness" and being saved from hell are necessarily the same thing.
On the way to salvatiion, you confront this righteous way; but not all necessarily complete the journey to where they are securely saved. |
| |
| To See More, Click Here... |
