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0-fold ministry? |
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Hebrews
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Hello charis sorry it took so long for me to get back to you,Paul was talking to the immediate church at hand ,yes the church did indeed h ave a five fold ministry,they are the foundation that Christ has layed Eph 2:20 and no other foundation can any man lay. In construction the foundation only has to be done one time,then the frame work fitly joined together. What your trying to say in essance is that we are to build another foundation. 1cor 3:10-12 . now I propose to you that if you think that there are still Apostles,then what your saying is that what christ layed was not good and that it needs to be redone.As for Andronicus and Junis,they were not Apostles. You see I could be among the pesidents men however that dosent make me one of them , thats in essence what Romans 16:7 is saying .I used to struggle with the elizabethan language of King James also, however if you would study the old language this would be very aparent. Judas was naver an Apostle he died as a diciple, they became Apostles after Christs death on the Cross.So we start with 11 , then Mathias replaced judas,and that is twelve. then James died before paul came into the ministry Acts 12:2 .thats eleven again, so you see Paul is number 12 , Idont know all things but for some reason there were allways atleast the twelve. Which 12 will be in the foundation is unknown but as Rev 21:14 the names of the 12 Apostles, Idont know about you but I beleive what scripture says. As basing my beleif on my traditions your very wrong. I would never think that my Lord couldnt heal , he does very effectivly his will, not when we in the Church get everything just rite. you see hes not a respector of persons , he Healed me of an addiction to heroin 17 years ago. And my friend if you think that healing ministrys are going to come back your wrong, show me one passage of scripture that says that . My Bible says that in the last times they will not endure sound doctrine,2 Tim 4:3 and that a great fallig away of the faith shall happen 2 thess 2:3. When do you think lying signs and wonders will happen 2Thess 2:9-11. I Pray that you dont believe in slain in the spirit, and that you are a part of a healthy well balanced church. remember that the older testament they worshipped in power and might , but now we worship in spirit and in truth. Love you and God bless Allways R.C. scroll |
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Apostles impossible? |
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Hebrews
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My dear friend in Christ, I read with great interest your reply. I must respectfully disagree with some of the premises of your opinions on this issue. It seems that you start with the idea that we do not have apostles today, then move on to prove it. Regarding Ephesians 2:20, I agree, these ministries are the foundation Christ laid. I do not propose to re-lay, but to continue on in this foundational gift. In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, you imply that the 'perfect' has come, thus doing away with the need for spiritual gifts. Jesus is the 'Perfect' spiritual gift, and He has not yet returned. I cannot believe that you say the divided church as we know it is not in need of as many gifts of the Spirit as are made available. We NEED them, now! Unfortunately, many 'ministries' have made a mockery of these gifts, with their misuse, abuse, and just plain false use of them. These miscreants are no excuse for you to deny the Spirit, just encouragement to find their proper use. As to Judas, I meant Judas called Barsabbas. What about: "But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out..." Acts 14:14 NASB. And when Paul, number 14, is considered to be number 12, does he displace James or Matthias? I also have personal experience with divine healing, my wife was healed from cancer of the womb, and I now have two teenage daughters. Actually, I do not like 'healing ministries,' and think that most are spiritually arrogant, some even charlatans. However, I cannot discount that many are healed by faith in God. I do, as a matter of fact, believe that one can be 'slain in the Spirit,' but think that the popular 'mass-slayings' are false, an abuse of showmanship and emotional manipulation.
I am part of a healthy, well-balanced church. Many speak in tongues and (gasp!) prophesy. However, in our defense, I assure you that "...all things be done properly and in an orderly manner." 1 Corinthians 14:40 NASB. You may have never experienced this, but it IS possible. (Please note that stating that something cannot happen because you have not seen it is spiritual bigotry) My friend, you cannot make your assumptions based on the how many people abuse the gifts. After all, if every lemming jumped off the cliff, there would be no more lemmings. Obviously, some lemmings are not totally stupid :-)
If you have never been to a 'spirit-filled' church that was orderly, respectable, responsible and balanced, come to Yokohama some time.
Yours in Christ Jesus. charis
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Part 2 Apologetics? |
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Matt 11:13
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Part 2
APOSTLE (Gk. (apostolos,) a "delegate"). One sent with a special message or commission. In this sense the word is used in the LXX (1KI 14:6; ISA 18:2), and in the NT: JOH 13:16, "Neither is one (who is sent) (apostle) greater than the one who sent him"; 2CO 8:23; PHI 2:25, where persons sent out by churches on special errands are called their (apostles,) or messengers. In HEB 3:1 Jesus is called "the (Apostle) and High Priest of our confession." (New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
Apostle in the New Testament seems to be divided into 3 categories. 1) Jesus, 2) The Apostles to the Lamb, 12 in number, Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot. This is the only 'replacement' recorded in the Bible. 2) 'Post-Ascension apostles, messengers between the churches. Not 'Big-shots' from whom healing and miracles continuously 'radiated,' but servants. I believe this lasy category of apostle is still valid, but often abused.
As to Judas, I meant Judas called Barsabbas, 'sent out' with Silas, Paul and Barnabas. (Acts 15:22) Regarding "Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Romans 16:7 NASB, you wrote, "As for Andronicus and Junis,they were not Apostles. You see I could be among the pesidents men however that dosent make me one of them." Please look at how the word 'among' is used in the Bible. It means 'with, together' and the usage implies clearly that the one party is included with the other party. What about: "But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out..." Acts 14:14 NASB. And when Paul, number 14, is considered to be number 12, does he displace James or Matthias? Rev 21:14
While I am talking about 5-fold ministry, please read "And Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message." Acts 15:32 NASB.
Friend, I also have personal experience with divine healing, my wife was healed from cancer of the womb, and I now have two teenage daughters. Actually, I do not like 'healing ministries,' and think that most are spiritually arrogant, some even charlatans. However, I cannot discount that many are healed by faith in God. I do, as a matter of fact, believe that one can be 'slain in the Spirit,' but think that the popular 'mass-slayings' are false, an abuse of showmanship and emotional manipulation.
I am part of a healthy, well-balanced church. Many speak in tongues and (gasp!) prophesy. However, in our defense, I assure you that "...all things be done properly and in an orderly manner." 1 Corinthians 14:40 NASB. You may have never experienced this, but it IS possible. (Please note that stating that something cannot happen because you have not seen it is spiritual bigotry) My friend, you cannot make your assumptions based on the how many people abuse the gifts. After all, if every lemming jumped off the cliff, there would be no more lemmings. Obviously, some lemmings are not totally stupid :-)
Finally, I am not 'buying into' anything. All that I speak of I have experienced. (Please watch your assumptions) If you have never been to a 'spirit-filled' church that was orderly, respectable, responsible and balanced, come to Yokohama some time.
Yours in Christ Jesus. charis |
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How can we assist our youth? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Dear prayon, Great answer! This one is going up on the church bulletin board, but I have to translate it into Japanese first. If I may, without giving offense, I would like to add a few comments.
The church, for all age groups, must teach respect and responsibility as key elements of fellowship among the saints. (This is, of course, after our spiritual attitude toward the Lord) If these are taught to all, it would include the youth, and they would partake of the benefits. If there is an unhealthy division anywhere along the line in a church, young people will see it in a moment, and call it rightly, hypocrisy. In every area, and to all who come, the church must portray the love, truth, and reality of our Lord Jesus. This would mean, though, that we cannot favor the youth, either. They must participate in this 'universal' respect and responsibility. After all, "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him." Proverbs 22:15 NASB. We must recognize a natural tendency to rebel and be foolish, and try to deal with it beforehand, if at all possible. (This would make us a little wiser than them, I hope :-) After the fact (sin or 'unwise decisions'), we must accept them, and try to 'minimize the damage,' and teach them the importance of ongoing repentance. I do not believe we should accept their foolishness and allow it to continue in the church, for that would be hypocrisy. We must be wise and gentle, as Jesus is, but firm and determined, as He also is. I discern that one of the greatest problem areas in dealing with young people is the correct wielding of discipline. There seems to be a 'pendulum effect' working that either is too strict and demanding, or too forgiving, allowing sin to escalate. This would be an off-center balance-weight. Worse would be the absence of a balance-weight, causing wild swings of love and wrath, leniency and unreasonable strictness. Jesus is our balance-weight, and He always points to perfect center. When He walked the earth, He always shocked those who heard Him. The Pharisees were shocked at His authority concerning the Word of God, the sinners were shocked at His love and grace. He was always righteous and kind, in a simple, straightforward manner. This is what we must show forth in the church, and our youth will be ministered to as a matter of course.
As another saint observed, we should not be focused on the youth, on missions, on worship, on healing, on study, on the pastor, on the denomination or 'covering,' or on anything but Jesus. If we find Him, every area will be covered.
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus, charis
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do churches need to be founded by an apo |
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2 Timothy
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Christian churches are to be founded on the teachings of the Apostles. The Lord Jesus commanded the apostles to teach and preach what He taught them. In the case of the Apostle Paul he was given grace to know the mystery of a new humanity made up of Jew and Gentiles (Eph.3)
In 2 Tim.3:5 the apostle Paul is describing what it will be like in the last days.
Should Christian fellowship with those who believe ministers should cast out demons and lay hands on the sick? The Cross of Christ should be our focus of our preaching and teaching and not the casting out of demons and physical health. Once again look over the Bible and one will see that Christ Jesus is the focus and not the casting out of demons or physical healing. We should attend churches where the whole counsel of God (the Bible) is preached and taught. |
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Divine Healing? |
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Matthew
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Sorry, I have, once again, failed to clarify my question. There is a 'theology' out in the charismatic world of Christianity today that says no christian has to be sick. They say that it is ALWAYS GOD's will for christians to be healthy, and if you're sick you must be doing something wrong. So, the conclusion is that all christians can receive a healing, if they have enough faith and do everything else that GOD wants them to do, this idea is what I was phrasing as Divine Healing. Do you believe in this idea? Do you know of any Scripture that would support it?
The same movement is unearthing the idea that GOD is about to pour a financial anointing on believers, and we are going to be rich, so that GOD will be able to use our tithes. This message usually comes with a request for a 'seed' of faith to start the harvest of wealth. Is there anything is Scripture to support this idea? Please express your (everyone!!) opinion!! GOD bless!! |
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No medical/spiritual need to circumcise? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Seeing as how I'm a female and had a daughter, I have no particular bone to pick here, but it seems like God would not have had them be circumcised if it was bad for them, seems like everything God has anybody do is for the good. I know that my brother's were circumcised and we were good Catholics, not Jews, I just thought it was the thing to do. I know I had a husband who ended up having it done while we were married for health reasons, I know he went thru a lot of pain. I read somewhere that at the time God commanded the Jews to circumcise their sons was at a perfect time for healing and maybe less pain. |
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Divine Healing, True or False? |
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Matthew
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Greetings Kimberly!
I have been trying to follow this thread over the past day or two. May I make a few comments?
1) No one questions that God can and does heal. I have seen it myself. It is supported in Scripture. What is questioned is whether these men on TV have the ability to heal on command. That is not supported in Scripture or experience. Healing is always done at God's discretion. The point that many have been making about these "healers" is a valid one. If they really could do these things, why not go to the hospitals? Why not go to the funeral homes? Further, why do you only "see" healings on TV that can't be verified? I've never seen an amputated are grow back. Usually, you "see" things like back pain, which can't be seen.
2) There is also a problem with the prosperity gospel. If God gives back 100 dollars for every 10 given, then why don't the TV preachers send us all 10 dollars. They would then be racking in the cash and not have to keep spending 45 minutes of an hour program asking for money.
This teaching is not Scriptural. I noticed that in one of your posts you quoted 3 John 2:
"Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers."
I have seen this verse used to support the prosperity gospel. However, it does no such thing. Notice the context of the verse. John is writting to Gaius, his friend. 3 John is a personal letter. In the intro to the letter, John expresses a desire that his friend is doing well. This is not a Biblical promise or a proof text for a doctrine. It is simply one friend telling another friend, "I hope everything is going well for you."
If you are interested in pursuing this topic, give us some Scripture reference to back up these practices and we can dialogue about them.
Your Brother in Christ,
Tim Moran |
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The bible is a work of fiction - discuss |
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Gen 1:1
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chimaera,
For someone who spoke of pitying those who believe the Bible on a Study Bible Forum, why would you worry about being mocked? In case you did not see the irony of my comment about spelling, we do it all the time here, too. :-) As to looking up 'chimaera' in the dictionary, I did! That is where I got the 'incongruous nature' comment. Watch my lips :-) 'Freudian Slip?'
What you have told me in this post gives me a lot more to go on in order to hold a discussion. You see, I did not know anything about God, the Bible or church until I was 25 years old. Instead, I studied philosophy, the pursuit of money, and several types of worldly pleasure. I, too, had a reputation of being a 'good guy.' I came to the knowledege of God by being faced with a reality of life, which is death. One (of several) was the news that my wife had cancer. Though not in 'immediate danger,' we were told that it could spread at any time. Also, as newlyweds, we were told that we could not have children. This was diagnosed by an expert, and fully documented. Well, (my wife first, I followed a few months later) started attending a church we were introduced to by a neighbor. They believed in more than 'religious observance' of the Bible, and practiced what they preached. I know, because I (being a skeptic by nature and training) really looked hard! I began to know God through the Bible, AND the preached Word, AND the living testimony of other believers, historical and those around me. Over a year after accepting that my own 'good' opinion of myself was NOT good enough to satisfy a true God, Junko (she is Japanese) began to stabilize (she could hardly walk). Then one day, I felt (or was made to know) that she was going to be healed. We got the news of her healing by way of a pregnancy test soon after this. We could hardly believe it, so went to a gynecologist. (I had to use a dictionary for this word. It took a few extra seconds, but I often misspell it, and misspell as well :-) We were told that 'we' were pregnant. This doctor did not know of the cancer, so we told him. He did a biopsy, and said that there was no evidence of cancer, at all. No scar tissue, nothing! Trust me, whatever skepticism I continued to have departed from me.
Naomi was born healthy, and Priscilla followed 3 years later. Naomi just started college, and knows God on her own. Not because I brain-washed her, but because she, too, has seen the hand of God moving in her own life. She had to seek after Him, and He was gracious to reveal Himself to her. So, my confused friend, must you.
(BTW, I post this with my own fingers and brain :-)
If you think about it, it is perfectly reasonable for your girlfriend to be concerned about any future you two may have. Common sense (mostly from the Bible) demands that a committed marriage be between those of like heart. (with all due respect, Duh!) And what would you teach your children without a common foundation?
If, indeed, you are looking for a real answer that will satisfy your heart, you will probably have to look beyond the 'religion' you despise, and find the faith behind it. I, too, see hypocrisy, greed, and foolishness in the church. But written in the Bible, and confirmed in so many lives is the faith in a loving God. His name is Jesus. He died for your sins, and is always available.
Chimaera, become whole again, and not an incongruous beast. Contact me if you like through my user info address. If you don't like me, there are numerous other faithful men and women here, willing to share what they have been given as a gift from God. The Good News.
Peace in Christ Jesus, charis |
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healing |
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Ps 103:3
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Thank you for your reply Bill Mc. My desire is to understand this verse in light of either past, present or future ages.
I have pondered that at face value, health is not a spiritual issue (although its causes can have a spiritual issue that has to be dealt with) the Holy Spirit would put these two benefits together in the hopes that we would understand that there is wholeness both for soul and body. Our Lord obviously sees them both as important.
Martyrdom seems a death for the cause of Christ. Whereas disease is a suffering, depending on its nature, that many times restrict the ability to minister for the cause of Christ. Would you say that sickness is a frontal attack from the enemy to hinder? Jesus rebuked sickness on many occasions. And those that came in faith were not sent away to remain ill.
Mark 16:17 tells us; These signs will accompany those who believe. They will be able to place their hands on the sick and heal them. (of course the healing is directly from the hand of God through and earthen vessel) This verse doesn't indicate sometimes, maybe, or possibly. Rather They will... And many other verses where Our Lord speaks of health and healing for our bodies.
With all our Lord speaks to us concerning our bodies, I am seeking Him to understand why his children are not eating of the Master's bread spoken of in Mark 8:28-30. Jesus' dealt with people's bodies as well as their souls with powerful compassion. The healings the Holy Spirit inspired men to document were those of faith building. At least that is how they speak to my spirit.
Seeing so many people (family as well as friends) with chronic ills and that have died with ravaging diseases is so sad.
Thanks again.
His Child,
James48
Mark 8:28-30. |
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Role of fasting in a Christian's walk? |
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Neh 1:4
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Greetings Mommapbs!
Thank you for responding! :-) You have provided me with some very good insight as far as what happens during fasting- like grief or mourning for loss, and the reasons for fasting in the first place..
Fasting is different from prayer, which is direct communication with God.
But at the same time, fasting is not a "complete prohibition" from something.. So, on the outward, could it be described as a "limited prohibition"?
When one fasts, I come to the reasoning that:
1) A person is beginning to fast for a reason..
2) Concentration upon God intensifies through prayer and/or studying Scripture..
3) There is a "resolution" or "coming to terms" during fasting..
4) Fasting is concluded with a "new resolve"..
If this is so, then how does one come to a 'resolution' during fasting? I have never fasted for more than 15 hours straight.. And I must admit that I haven't learned much about the 'actual experience' of fasting.
Here are some examples that I found that helped me to construct the '4 level fast' above: fasting for freedom from addiction (Matt. 17:20,21), fasting to solve problems (Ezra 8:21-23), fasting to bring people to the Lord (1 Sam. 7:1-8), fasting to break crippling fears and other mental problems (1 Kings 19:2-18), fasting to provide for the needy (1 Kings 17:12), fasting for insight and decision making (Acts 9:9-19), fasting for health and physical healing (Dan. 1:12-20), fasting for an influential testimony (Matt. 3:4; Luke 1:15), and fasting for protection from Satan (Esther 4:16).
In each of these examples, it seems that there was a specific reason for a fast that in turn led to a deeper devotion, which led to a resolution, and then to a new resolve..
Does anyone else have any thoughts on fasting?
Thank you! |
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Parable fo the Good Samaritan - Evaluate |
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NT general
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It is possible to see ourselves as the man on the road, beaten and left for dead. The Law, represented by the priest and levite, cannot save. In fact they avoid the man who may be dead for fear of being contaminated and made ritually impure as they are going up to the Temple in Jersualem to perform their duties. Jesus is the Good Samaritan. He is not defiled by contact with the man, but rather saves him and restores him to life. He annoints him with oil, even as the baptized are anointed with oil as they enter into Christ and share in His priestly, prophetic and kingly mission. The Samaritan pays the price of
of the man's recovery and restoration to health to the innkeeper.
Whenever in the Gospels Jesus touches the unclean he is not contaminated as other men are by contact with sin. Instead sin is driven out by virtue and healing grace. There are a number of ways one can look at this parable. |
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do we have any free will? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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I believe God's will for us is different than what actually takes place in our lives. I don't believe anyone has fulfilled God's will in their life completely, but only made attempts to. In Mark 1:39-42, the notion of something being "willed" into being is shown by Jesus healing the leper. That is God's will being fully exploited in a man's life. God wills for us to have life, and life more abundantly, but if he does not will it, it does not happen. We have free will, and God also has a plan for our lives. If these two intermingle once in a while, we say "Praise God for blessing me!" but that has always been his will for our lives. Blessings, life, health. Our actions sometimes move us out of his will, which is opposite of blessings....aka curses. If God's will was forced upon us, there would be no sin, but that sin already has been established in this world, and though he does not like it, i don't think He "liked" seeing his only begotten son die the most painful death known to man on the cross, while being humiliated in front of his "children." |
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When will I speak/pray in tongues? |
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Acts 2:6
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Scooting over to 1 Timothy 4:14 does not give me the same subject. That is my whole point. The immediate context of 1 Timothy 4:14 is 1 Timothy 4, not Acts nor 1 Corinthians 12 nor Romans 12. Of course these passages provide a larger context for the verse in question, but so do Judges, 2 Kings, and Obadiah.
Show me from Scripture that when Jesus said "ask and you will receive," he was talking about tongues. Please cite chapter and verse and make your point, because simply stringing along a group of phrases that Jesus said in a number of different contexts does not make them applicable to your argument.
You are absolutely right that tongues were a sign of salvation for Cornelius and his household. I have not suggested that tongues were never a sign of salvation. What I am saying is that Christians have been certainly "well-established" without possessing this gift at all. Martin Luther was not a tongues-speaker. Nor was Jonathan Edwards. To my knowledge, Augustine never mentioned it. John Calvin did not speak in tongues. John and Charles Wesley? Nope.
Since you seem to be missing my point regarding 1 Corinthians 12, let me point out the verses in question:
"And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"
--1 Corinthians 12:28-30
After discussing throughout the chapter the fact that God in His sovereignty has established different roles for believers within the church (along with different gifts that accompany them), he goes on to say very emphatically that every believer does NOT have every gift (including tongues). This is not due to a lack of asking or a lack of faith. This is due to the fact that God specifically ordained to assign them different gifts. Also, notice how far tongues is down the list. Why does your church major on a gift that Paul assigns such a very minor place?
The fact is that Scripture plainly says, in no uncertain terms, that tongues is not a gift that all Christians will truly have. Therefore, it stands to reason, statistically speaking, that many in your church are faking it or are deceived into thinking that the noises they are uttering are truly from God. Perhaps it is you who needs to evaluate how "established" you are.
I am with a very healthy church. What are the marks of a healthy church? A healthy, established church is one where the sufficiency and efficacy of God's Word is held to and boldly proclaimed and honored. A healthy church is where the congregation regularly engages in baptism and the Lord's Supper. And a healthy church is one where a biblically-based system of discipline is in place to keep the church doctrinally pure and free from gross, evident, unrepentant sin. The church I attend has all of these, and bears spiritual fruit as a result.
--Joe!
P.S. Isaiah 7 has nothing to do with tongues. |
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Healing powers |
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Ex 20:3
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Dear Kathi_41,
Greetings in Jesus' name!
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." Exodus 20:2-6 NASB.
The above verses tell us that God is a jealous God. He does not want our faith compromised or adulterated. When we dabble in things that clearly seek after our faith, we grieve our Lord. Some may say that you don't have to go 'that far' into these things, but they are a trap and a snare to divert your attention. God is all the healing you need, the rest is common sense and a healthy attitude in the life He gives. Worshipping body and health invades God's sovereignty, if you begin to seek longer life or the glorification of the human form.
I do not suggest that you 'eat, drink, and be merry' (obese and slothful)! Of course we should be responsible not to abuse this 'earthly tent.' But watch out for the idol worship of health and long life!
In Christ Jesus, charis |
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Whole or Well? |
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Luke 17:19
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GOOD DAY FORUM! I hope all is well with everyone!
Luke 17:12-19 speaks of 10 lepers calling to Jesus for healing and only one of them, a foreigner, returning to Thank him.
I'm having difficulty with one word in verse 19. Spending most all of my Christian life in the Old King James version of the Bible, which reads this way "And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee WHOLE." I had always thought maybe, (since leprosy can result in severe disfigurment, especially of the feet, hands, and face), that this one that returned to Jesus to thank him was made whole again. Meaning that any disfigurment was restored to it's original shape. I had thought that the others were healed but maybe not made whole. In the NASB and the New King James version the last word in verse 19 is WELL. I looked up the definitions of both words and the meaning of both of them are different: WHOLE meaning complete, WELL meaning in good health.
Any thoughts, facts, and/or Spiritual guidance on this?
THANK YOU Brothers and Sisters.
Cyclist |
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Is God ONE or is God THREE? |
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James 2:19
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Ray, my friend:
It is SO good to hear from you. It's been awhile. Thanks for the feedback to my posting.
Be assured that I will be praying for your health and healing.
Keep up the good work on the forum.
Grace and peace be multiplied to you,
kalos |
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Who else besides Cain, Adam, and Eve? |
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Genesis
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Hi Joe,
Excuse me, I thought your post was a question. Please forgive me for using the improper word!!!!
Thank you so much for your concern!! I truly do appreciate people looking out for each other.
The information that you have posted is evidentially not from your own personnel knowledge of the actual teachings, because a lot of this just simply is not true.
The King James Version of the Bible is what we study with the Science and Health, as let’s say our commentary. Our Daily Bible studies along with the book at www.spirituality.com
Science and Health is very much Christian! I had no intention of turning this into a Mary Baker Eddy discussion, but to keep this brief and to the point I will. Mrs. Eddy had been raised in a Christian Church; She was a very sick child. One day she was healed and she wanted to know why she was healed so she spent 3 years studying the Bible mainly the teachings of Jesus to learn that Jesus’ teachings were scientific or lets say provable.
Joe I understand the confusion of this study as I once had similar thoughts. But knowing that I had never been around such kind, loving, non-judgmental people anywhere as well as and even more so, the healings that I have witnessed over and over again are something that I just cannot nor will not ignore.
Please understand that I’m not at all saying that this study is right for everyone, that's God's job, but for myself I have seen such marvelous healings,this is the proof of the teaching.
Joe, why do people when they find something unlike their own thinking do they assume that it’s wrong or bad regardless of the Truth or the good achieved. Oh well the Pharisees did the exact same thing to Jesus. Oh, you know I never felt like a victim at all. But I sure am glad that I have the proof in the healing so I can just smile!
Keep up your reforming with God’s love Joe.
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Who else besides Cain, Adam, and Eve? |
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Genesis
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Hi Joe,
Excuse me, I thought your post was a question. Please forgive me for using the improper word!!!!
Thank you so much for your concern!! I truly do appreciate people looking out for each other.
The information that you have posted is evidentially not from your own personnel knowledge of the actual teachings, because a lot of this just simply is not true.
The King James Version of the Bible is what we study with the Science and Health, as let’s say our commentary. Our Daily Bible studies along with the book at www.spirituality.com
Science and Health is very much Christian! I had no intention of turning this into a Mary Baker Eddy discussion, but to keep this brief and to the point I will. Mrs. Eddy had been raised in a Christian Church; She was a very sick child. One day she was healed and she wanted to know why she was healed so she spent 3 years studying the Bible mainly the teachings of Jesus to learn that Jesus’ teachings were scientific or lets say provable.
Joe I understand the confusion of this study as I once had similar thoughts. But knowing that I had never been around such kind, loving, non-judgmental people anywhere as well as and even more so, the healings that I have witnessed over and over again are something that I just cannot nor will not ignore.
Please understand that I’m not at all saying that this study is right for everyone, that's God's job, but for myself I have seen such marvelous healings,this is the proof of the teaching.
Joe, why do people when they find something unlike their own thinking do they assume that it’s wrong or bad regardless of the Truth or the good achieved. Oh well the Pharisees did the exact same thing to Jesus. Oh, you know I never felt like a victim at all. But I sure am glad that I have the proof in the healing so I can just smile!
Keep up your reforming with God’s love Joe.
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Who else besides Cain, Adam, and Eve? |
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Genesis
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Hi Joe,
Excuse me, I thought your post was a question. Please forgive me for using the improper word!!!!
Thank you so much for your concern!! I truly do appreciate people looking out for each other.
The information that you have posted is evidentially not from your own personnel knowledge of the actual teachings, because a lot of this just simply is not true.
The King James Version of the Bible is what we study with the Science and Health, as let’s say our commentary. Our Daily Bible studies along with the book at www.spirituality.com
Science and Health is very much Christian! I had no intention of turning this into a Mary Baker Eddy discussion, but to keep this brief and to the point I will. Mrs. Eddy had been raised in a Christian Church; She was a very sick child. One day she was healed and she wanted to know why she was healed so she spent 3 years studying the Bible mainly the teachings of Jesus to learn that Jesus’ teachings were scientific or lets say provable.
Joe I understand the confusion of this study as I once had similar thoughts. But knowing that I had never been around such kind, loving, non-judgmental people anywhere as well as and even more so, the healings that I have witnessed over and over again are something that I just cannot nor will not ignore.
Please understand that I’m not at all saying that this study is right for everyone, that's God's job, but for myself I have seen such marvelous healings,this is the proof of the teaching.
Joe, why do people when they find something unlike their own thinking do they assume that it’s wrong or bad regardless of the Truth or the good achieved. Oh well the Pharisees did the exact same thing to Jesus. Oh, you know I never felt like a victim at all. But I sure am glad that I have the proof in the healing so I can just smile!
Keep up your reforming with God’s love Joe.
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Who else besides Cain, Adam, and Eve? |
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Genesis
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You wrote:
"The information that you have posted is evidentially not from your own personnel knowledge of the actual teachings, because a lot of this just simply is not true."
That is where you are mistaken. I have been studying groups like Christian Science for over ten years. I have a copy of Science and Health and have spoken to quite a number of Christian Scientists. I have also paid a visit to a couple of reading rooms to talk with individuals there.
What exactly in the Watchman profile regarding Christian Science was in error?
You wrote:
"Joe, why do people when they find something unlike their own thinking do they assume that it’s wrong or bad regardless of the Truth or the good achieved."
Something is wrong not because I do not like it, but rather because it contradicts the clear-as-crystal teachings of God's Word. Go read Romans 1-3 without Science and Health at your side and tell me on your own what God has to say about human nature and God's attitude toward it.
Playing the "Pharisee card" does not work because I am not preaching legalism. I am proclaiming Truth, which will result in your eternal and just suffering at the hands of a wrathful God if you continue to reject it (Romans 1:20). And that is the message that Jesus preached to the Pharisees, by the way (John chapters 8-10).
You wrote:
"But I sure am glad that I have the proof in the healing so I can just smile!"
Well, smiles and happiness and not feeling a victim does not equal the possession of truth:
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."
--Mathhew 24:24
Scripture is sufficient. Holding to another text as necessary to understand Scripture makes God a liar:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
--2 Timothy 3:16
Do you honestly believe that an all powerful God let the truth of his teachings disappear for 1800 years? Stop and think about the words of these verses. Look at them without putting on the "Science and Health" spectacles, and the meaning will become quite clear.
--Joe! |
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Who else besides Cain, Adam, and Eve? |
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Genesis
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What does Christian Science Teach?
The following doctrines are referenced out of the primary Christian Science work, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, by Mary Baker Eddy. It is supposed to be a companion to the Bible. Science and Health together with the Bible are called the Pastor of Christian Science.
God is infinite...and there is no other power or source, SH, 471:18.
God is Universal Principle, SH 331:18-19
God cannot indwell a person, SH 336:19-20
God is the only intelligence in the universe, including man SH 330:11-12
God is Mind, SH 330:20-21; 469:13
God is the Father-Mother, SH 331:30; 332:4
The Trinity is Life, Truth, and Love, SH 331:26
Belief in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity is polytheism, SH 256:9-11
Christ is the spiritual idea of sonship SH 331:30-31
Jesus was not the Christ, SH 333:3-15; 334:3
"Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus himself declared..." SH 361:12-13
Jesus did not reflect the fullness of God, SH 336:20-21
Jesus did not die, SH 45:32-46:3
The Holy Spirit is divine science, SH 331:31
There is no devil, SH 469:13-17
There is no sin, SH 447:24
Evil and good are not real, SH, 330:25-27; 470:9-14
Matter, sin, and sickness are not real, but only illusions," SH 335:7-15; 447:27-28.
Life is not material or organic, "SH, 83:21
The sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient to cleanse from sin, "SH, 25:6.
True healings are the result of true belief, "SH, 194:6"
Additionally, Christian Scientists prefer not to use doctors, medicine, or immunizations.
Christian Science Practitioners are used to help people through the false reality of illness.
Proper prayer and training are employed to battle the "non-reality" of illness.
They have no ordinances like the Lord's Supper or baptism.
Church services are interspersed with Bible reading and readings from Science and Health.
Mary Baker Eddy is highly regarded as a revelator of God's word, almost equal to Jesus.
www.carm.org/christian_science/csdoctrine.htm |
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If we ask for healing does God answer no |
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1 Peter
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Cody
The verse you quote "By his stripes we are healed is found two places in the bible.
In Is 53:5 and 1 Peter 2:24 and both have been the subject of much discussion particularly since many TV evangelist teach on this.
1. The question is are these verses talking spiritual healing or physical healing? Context around 1 Peter 2:24 insists that it is talking about spiritual healing. However the meaning in Isaiah is not so clear.
2. To add to the confusion Matthew 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES." Here the quote comes from Is. 53:3 just 2 verses preceding the verse in question. However notice here the Matthew says Jesus is fulfilling it even before the crucifixion.
3. Then there is argument since our spirit was dead in sin would healing be the answer won’t rebirth be required, therefore this passage has to be talking physical rather the spiritual healing.
4. Another passage that must be added to the mix is found in James 5:14-16. It tells a Christian what they should do if they become sick.
Now let me address those points.
1. Since 1 Peter 2:24 is a quote of Isaiah and context of the Peter proves he is talking of spiritual rather than physical healing this adds credence to Isaiah’s passage as also talking of spiritual rather than physical healing. If not then we would have to conclude Peter under the unction of the Holy Spirit took a passage that meant one thing to mean another. God is not the author of confusion 1 Cor. 14:33
2. Isaiah was giving us a list of things the Messiah would accomplish or should be recognized by. Jesus did in fact meet every one of those. However since it was a list it does not mean we have to consider context (the fact Isaiah was talking about physical healing in verse 3 does not have to mean he is talking about physical healing in verse 5).
3. This is man’s logic and really a play on words. Many times our unsaved spirit was referred to as needed healing, or made right, or to be reborn. I believe it is not proof of anything and again nothing more than a play on words.
4. If Jesus provided healing by his stripes then logic would say we should have perfect health upon salvation and James would be unneeded. However God does nothing for nothing and James was included. Therefore we must have a need for it.
I believe Jesus’ death gave us the right to ask for healing and if it serves God’s purpose and pleasure we will be healed. However I also think if it serves God purpose and pleasure that we remain afflicted than I belief that will be the case.
We should always ask expecting to be healed, but knowing if we are not, God has promised to make all things work to our good for those that love Him and are called to His purpose. Romans 8:28.
I myself have been healed of many things and I have seen others healed. But to insist that God has to heal us because Is 53:5 is just not correct.
EdB |
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If we ask for healing does God answer no |
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1 Peter
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Healing: Does God Always Heal?
Probably the main reason we are concerned about the doctrine that it is always God’s will to heal is because we have met too many people, and received too many letters, such as the one from which I now quote:
"I am very interested in your views on Kenneth Hagin and Copeland. I have a blood condition called Hypoglycemia. I have experienced an extreme case of it. I have often wondered why I wasn’t healed instantly and supernaturally. This seems to sometimes make me feel as though I haven’t repented of sin, or committed an awful sin, or even that I didn’t (have) any faith or I have even doubted my salvation."
To have the audacity to tell one of God’s children that if they are sick it is because of their own sin or lack of faith is to abound in presumptuousness, and be bankrupt in compassion. I’ve known of more than one person who demonstrated this insensitivity until God dealt with him by laying him flat on his back, and when none of his "principles" would work he suddenly developed an empathy of those he had once judged. We never see it portrayed in Scripture that perfect health is the sign of spirituality. To set up such a standard is to divert God’s people from the spiritual standard that Scripture does set forth (such as in 2 Peter 1:5-9).
Ken Copeland and others teach that we must resist sickness in the same way that we resist sin. This also disturbs us. We’ve seen too many good Christians striving to "believe" their sickness away, and finally collapsing into self-condemnation and utter discouragement over their "lack of faith" or the "sin" in their lives. Most likely, there was a divine purpose for that sickness in their lives, and it would have been a lot easier on them, after they prayed in faith and nothing happened, to have ceased striving and simply rested in the comforting sovereignty of God.
After being forced to go to this extent to prove that it is not always God’s will to heal, we do want to close on the positive note that we do believe that divine healing is for today. We see no Scriptural basis to doubt that we can expect to see healing take place here and now. Healing should be a regular part of the life of all churches (James 5:14-16). We also believe that faith plays an important part in receiving healing, and that the Church has much to learn about faith, and how to more effectively receive it for healing. We feel that many who saw this need embraced the "healing in the atonement" doctrine because it seemed to offer a more solid basis for faith. Unfortunately, however, this basis is not the Scriptural basis, and therefore it has created more problems than was hoped it would solve.
If we have no guarantee that it is always God’s will to heal, how then can we pray in faith for healing? In the same way that we pray in faith for other things which Scripture does not specifically promise us. We may pray that the Lord would give us a job at a certain company, but we cannot know for sure if it’s His will that we work there unless He personally assures us of it through His Spirit. Faith is a supernatural gift (Ephesians 2:8); it begins with God. Thus when it is God’s will for a healing (which I believe it often would be), if we are open and receptive to Him, a supernatural assurance from Him will come upon us. The Body of Christ needs to learn to be more receptive and responsive to the prompting of the Holy Spirit working in our faith, so that through a sovereign act of God’s healing will multiply in the land, and the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be glorified. - Elliot Miller (1979)
1Price, Frederick K. C., Is Healing For All? Harrison House, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1976, 9.
2Ibid., 10.
3Ibid., 12.
4Hagin, Kenneth E., Right and Wrong Thinking, Kenneth Hagin Evangelistic Association, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 24
(STATEMENT DH018, http://www.equip.org/search/) |
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Promise? |
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Heb 11:39
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The scripture is referencing OT saints. Jesus was/is the promise that had not been fulfilled in their lifetime, but they knew of the coming Messiah. For New Testament saints (you and I), the promise of the son of God is being fulfilled now, and will be fulfilled when Christ returns for His Bride/The Church. In Christ, their is an inheritance/blessings that we are entitled to as believers. That would include such things as, power over all powers of the enemy, healing, protection, long life, good health, prosperity, eternal life, etc.
Cross references for Heb. 11:29
Hebrews 10
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
Hebrews 11
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
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Is not Jesus enough? |
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Heb 11:39
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Such things as, power over all powers of the enemy, healing, protection, long life, good health, prosperity, etc.? Your main question is, is Jesus not enough? Yes, He is more than enough. I didn’t get saved because I needed a new car or because I wanted the tangible things to make me feel good. Jesus showed me his love through his word and convinced me to trust him to take away the pains of the past and still today he has done all of that and more.
MATTHEW 6:30-33, If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
I don’t seek God’s hand, I seek Him for who He is to me, but as you have read, Jesus said to seek Him and all these things will be given to you as well. I didn’t say it, He did. He knows we have needs and His word comes with promises that we can have.
Here this, how would you feel if you bought your husband a gift. You took your time and energy picking out this gift, you were excited because you knew he would be excited and when you gave him the gift, he responded, “I don’t need or want this, why did you waste your time on tangible things, take it back.” That is what you are saying to Jesus when you don’t receive all that He has for you. Yes, you can still go to heaven without ever receiving any of His promises besides salvation, but even Jesus gave the disciples a modeled prayer in Matthew 6:10, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. You don’t have to wait until you get to heaven to receive. Why wouldn’t you want to be empowered by the Holy Spirit to defeat the enemy’s plan to kill, steal and destroy you (John 10:10)? The bible says in Isaiah 53:5, He was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we were healed. Why would He go through all of that for us to say, “that’s okay, I would rather be sick because all I need is you, well He is Jehovah Raphe, Our healer. Healing is Him. Who is getting the glory by you being sick and denying the power of God in you to make you well if you believe. Deut 8:18, says that He has given us power to get wealth so that His covenant may be established which He swore unto our fathers. He said the wealth of the wicked was laid up for the just. In Gen. 8:22, it says as long as the earth remains there shall be seedtime and harvest. We are not possessors of anything, just stewards over what God has given us. He blesses us to bless someone. Nothing He gives us is for personal gain (fleshly desires), but He said in Psalm 37:4,that if we delight ourselves in Him, He would give us the desires of our heart. I believe when you are in fellowship with God, your desires will line up with His will/desires for you. He is not going to give you something that is outside of His will. I do see your point and there is a fine line between God blessing us with things and the world/fleshly desires giving us what we want and then saying God did it. We live in this world, but we are not of this world, so we are strangers, but we are not strangers of God, so why let the world’s wickedness and wrongdoing, deny us the right to have immeasurably more than we can ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us (Eph. 3:20). Even James was aware of people that are seeking God for things rather to be righteous like God. James 4:3 says you ask and receive not because you ask so that you may consume it upon your lusts. On the other hand, James also says, James 4:2, you do not have, because you do not ask God.
Bottom line: We should be careful that our motives in serving God are right and that we would be careful to do what He asks so that He would get the glory! We have been bought with a price, it is not about our self-gain, but God’s goodness and sharing our testimonies of Christ with others to encourage others to come to Him and be saved. I don’t seek for gifts, but the gift giver. I really can’t think of any reason why I would tell my Father no. So don’t fear what people might say if you believe that God’s promises are still for today. Look up the word salvation (soteria) in Greek, it means 1) TO DELIVER (Didomi) - to give something to someone of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage, to bestow a gift, to grant, give to one asking, let have. 2) HEALTH 3) TO BE SAVED 4) DELIVERANCE
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David's account |
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Is 57:1
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Greetings Sister! It's always wonderful to share the Lord together; time cannot separate the fellowship we have!
I'm not sure if the Proverb you cite (18:21) is applicable to this question. Perhaps it is best applied to our Spiritual Life. (see cross reference to Matthew 12:37)
Re: David had God's word or judgment on the matter and yet he fasted and prayed for the child's life "perhaps God will relent."(v22) This is certainly understandable as Mosess interceded for the children of Israel many times and God relented. This should encourage us to pray without ceasing too.
You asked "What word from HIM do we (born again believers) have on the matter of physical healing?"
I wish I could give you a precise answer to this difficult question. There are so many that we are lifting up before the Throne of Grace for physical healing, and the healing we ask for doesn't come.
At times like these, I must absolutely depend upon the sovereignty of GOd alone. Resting there gives me the comfort and confidence I need to live live in the face of unanswered questions and uncertainty.
It is ALWAYS appropriate for God's children to come to Him in prayer. James 5:13-20 addresses the power of prayer as well as healing. Keep in mind that God's wellness plan for us is to restore us to a right relationship with Him! How He accomplishes this is of HIS choosing. Part of that path of health may very well take us to the elders of the Church, the docotr's office, the pharmacy, the hospital and perhaps even the funeral home! God's ways are not our ways, but His plans are always perfect and for our absolute best!
My counsel to you is to seek the face of the Lord in your intercession. Release your heart to Him and let God reveal what YOU need; perhaps it is simply to trust Him for the outcome! (I think David set an example for us to follow in 2 Sam 12!)
May our Lord and Savior give you a hug today from me - blessings on your day!
Mommapbs
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Thorn in the flesh |
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Is 57:1
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Paul tells Timothy:
"No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments."
--1 Timothy 5:23
Timothy, who was in many ways Paul's successor, suffered from frequent ailments? How is that possible if he had been taught by Paul that Jesus came so that we would be physically healthy in this life? And why would Paul not just tell him to "claim his healing," rather than prescribing wine?
Paul also mentions another illness:
"But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my need; because he was longing for you all and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick. For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow."
--Philippians 2:25-27
Now why would Epaphroditus have been sick to the point of death in Paul's presence if Paul knew and taught him that all physical sickness in this life had been taken care of at the Cross, and if Paul could have healed him? he does not rebuke Epaphroditus for his supposed "lack of faith," but rather commends him for his service to the Lord.
I know you have not been one to let a little thing like the Bible get in the way of your pre-conceived notions, but I just wanted to point it out for the benefit of everyone else who lets Scripture shape their theology.
--Joe! |
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Thorn in the flesh |
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Is 57:1
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Wow...you can add ANYTHING to the Bible and make it say what you want it to!
Yoy still didn't address in your cut-and-paste job, why Timothy would be getting sick so often. But let's look at that argument, anyway:
"a. Water in the ancient world was often unreliable in regard to purity, Paul's advice is reliable to Timothy as it is to any traveling person."
If every believer could "drink poison" and not be harmed (Mark 16), what would be the problem with a little bad water? In any case, this doesn't address the point of my question.
"b. Timothy was the victim of 'frequent infirmities'; yet Paul did not simply command a healing on apostolic authority, or even send him a handkerchief with healing power (Acts 19:11-12)."
I have no idea what the point is here.
"c. Paul did not have miraculous powers at his beck and call, but only at the prompting of the Holy Spirit - and apparently, there was no such prompting in Timothy's case"
Oh, so in other words, in that case, in that time, and in those circumstances, it wasn't God's will for Timothy to be instantly healed? That is very convincing; problem is, you are convincing me of the point that I was already making.
"d. If it is God's will for all to be healed 'right now', then Paul (and the Holy Spirit who inspired him) lead Timothy into sin - calling him to look to a natural remedy instead of a divine healing."
What is being said here? That Paul was sinning in his divinely-inspired instructions to Timothy? There is nothing in this segment of your post that supports your point-of-view. If anything, it is an adequate defense of mine. Thanks!
As far as Epaphroditus, you quoted:
"Epaphroditus made a choice to continue to work when he should have stopped."
Please show me ANYWHERE in Philippians 2 where Paul criticizes the actions of Epaphroditus. We see nothing but approval of Epaphroditus fulfilling Philippians 1:29.
Epaphroditus was not sick because he overworked, but because, despite the fact he was sick, he continued to work for Paul's behalf (and the Lord's, of course) to the point of death. And that is not what Paul considers "overwork" (please show me any Scriptural support for "overwork" as a sin, except in the case of Sabbath-breaking); but rather he is using Epaphroditus and Timothy in chaper 2 as an example of this principle:
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others."
--Philippians 2:3-4
Yeah, Epaphroditus putting Paul ahead of his own health was SUCH a sin!
Your prosperity doctrine is not only unbiblical; it is purely evil in its implications.
--Joe! |
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