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Just as if I had never sinned? |
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1 Cor 6:11
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I have to strongly disagree with your statement: "We of the NT can claim righteousness as an eternal reward of our faith..." . . . Righteousness is imputed to us when we are saved. And we are neither saved nor made righteous "as a reward of our faith." We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 God's Word Translation: "God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God. It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it." . . . We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Our faith does not save us or give us righteousness in the eyes of God. Only the grace provided by the shed blood of Jesus Christ can save us. See Rom 3:28 . . . Eph 2:9 Living Bible "Salvation is not a reward for the good we have done." Moreover, salvation is not a reward for ANYTHING we have done. . . . The only righteousness that we have is the righteousness of Christ Himself, which is IMPUTED (put into) us. Rom 4: 1-8 NASB What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
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What was the Lord's expectation? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Sam, I'd like to ask not only Mike's, but your forgiveness in Christ, also, because, I truly have allowed my emotions to get the best of me in this debate. I want to preface my comment, with a realization of the debate between Mike and myself. I truly have been blind to an important fact during our debate! As you probably noticed, Mike made it very clear that GOD's time schedule does not allow for immanent return, and for some reason I was blind to the fact that this was a major sticking point, that needed to be rectified. I agree with Mike fully, there is no such thing as immanent return for GOD! He knows everything! And, if you like Charles Stanley, you've probably heard that GOD cannot have expectations; because, He already knows the outcome. Immanent return is only relevant in Man's realm of time and space. Man does not know when the Lord will return, so he must always be looking for the Lord. This problem was clearly stated by Mike, but unfortunately, I was oblivious to this important point of contention. And, to note the difference is crucial! Immanent return is an idea that only exists in the limited time and limited knowledge in the realm of man.
The reason I write is because I don't think I understand your comment. You say that all christians, in the past, who have believed in immanent return were wrong, but they were only wrong if it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to have returned at that time. I assume that GOD is and was free to choose ANYTIME to send our Lord back to earth. Therefore, if GOD can choose anytime to send Jesus back or could have chose anytime in the past to send Him back, they were, in fact, correct in thinking that Christ COULD have come back during their lifetimes. Immanent return does not mean Christ WILL come back immediately, only that He COULD come back at anytime (which COULD be soon or even today). And, since I believe we would agree that NOTHING IS (or ever has been) IMPOSSIBLE TO GOD; He could have sent Jesus back in the past if He would have chosen to do so. So, for the sake of not 'being caught unprepared' our christian forefathers were, in my opinion, correct in keeping their heads up looking for Jesus. Notice, that immanent return is not to blame for any of the faulty predictions made in days past. The idea does not espouse a date for the return and in fact, suggests the opposite, since we CANNOT know the date we should always be on the look out; because, our Lord said, 'I am coming quickly!' |
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What was the Lord's expectation? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Chris,
There is nothing to forgive. I was not offended in anyway at all and if I was I would not hold it against you.
Chris, they were wrong for believing in something that neither existed nor was taught from Holy Scripture. Nowhere does our Lord ever teach that His return to call out His church would be an any-moment event, meaning God has never concluded exactly when He would return. What we commonly call the rapture, is a definite and determined event that will occur but once and is only an "at one-moment" event. Our Lord knows precisely when He will return because it is an already fixed event in the mind of God. Humans cannot change that event simply because they do not know when it will happen. Saying it is an "any-moment" event contradicts the foreknowledge of God in that it will happen only once and cannot happen at any other time in our history other than the predetermined and fore-ordained time God has already fixed for it to happen.
"Assuming" what God can do is not the same as "proving" what God will do. Out of the ANYTIME He was free to choose, He only determined that event to happen at one particular time in history and not before or after that time.
Chris, the very fact that our Lord has not returned is the evidence that proves the Father had not ever determined to send His Son until some future time and no time in the past (to us) could ever have been the time the Father had pre-determined to send His Son back for His Church.
Again Chris, your view undermines the foreknowledge and pre-determination of God in fore-ordaining the events only He would cause to happen at the appointed time. I don't know if you are familiar with the term "Open Theism", but your view is very close to it.
No disrespect intended Chris but not IMPOSSIBLE TO GOD is a common "catch-all" phrase Chrsitians enjoy using when we have no other "biblical" answer. Whenever we can't defend a particular position in which we believe, we just simply say that God can do anything He wants to do and that is supposed to settle the issue. It doesn't and furthermore, it only confuses and further contradicts the issue. Of course I believe nothing is IMPOSSIBLE TO GOD, but that doesn't prove anything. It's not impossible that God could have re-grown all the hair on my head 10 years ago, being almost bald now, but He didn't. Obviously, it was not His will to do so even though it is not impossible. Get the point?
If our Christian forefathers truly expected the return of Christ to happen, then they surely believed it would happen. If they surely believed it would happen, they must have had sound biblical warrant for such a belief. However, they were mistaken because it never happend and could not have happened since it was obviously not the Father's will for it to have happened.
The false assumption of an unbiblical teaching of an immanent return is VERY MUCH responsible for past and present faulty predictions of our Lord's return. Faulty predictions are the result of faulty understandings which come from a faulty view of scripture.
Actually Chris, the idea of a supposed immanent return does indeed espouse a date for the return of Christ. Isn't the very moment you are reading this response considered an "any-moment" in our history? So then, Christ could return at the very moment you are reading this and that is most definately espousing a specific date. However, we leave ourselves an easy-out since we do not specifically name a calendar date. But what's the difference? Isn't the very moment you are reading this a calendar date? The very fact the we not only CANNOT know, but also WILL NOT know, proves the "any-moment" idea is false. You cannot say the rapture will be at any moment, yet I do not know if it will be at any moment.
And for what should Christians be "looking out" Chris. Will a sudden, immanent return change anything at all about our relationship with Christ, our salvation, our redemption, our eternal destiny? If "looking-out" means we should live holy lives, then our Lord has already given us a clear, unambiguous and distinct command to do this without any reference to a future rapture.
I look forward to hearing from you Chris.
Sam Hughey |
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How was Tower of Babel possible? |
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Gen 11:4
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Greetings, prayon!
The following is from the "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia" and there is detailed information here on the building of the Tower of Babel..
"16. NO IDEA OF REACHING HEAVEN
Concerning the reputed intention of the builders of the Tower, to carry it as high as the heavens, that, notwithstanding the Talmud and other writings, may be dismissed at once. The intention was to build a very high tower, and that is all that is implied by the words employed. That the Babylonians would have liked their tower to reach heaven may be conceded, and the idea may be taken as symbolical of Babylon’s pride, the more especially as they regarded it as “the house of the foundation of heaven and earth.” Though at present brought lower than the other temple-towers of Babylonia, its renown remains as one of the great glories of that renowned capital. Dedicated as it was to the gods whom they worshipped, and chiefly to the glory of Merodach, the representative of Babylonian monotheism, the Babylonians’ descendants, the native Christians, have no reason to remember this erection of their forefathers with shame, but rather with pride. The rallyingpoint of nations, Babylon, while it existed, was always a great commercial center, and many are the languages which have resounded in the Tower’s vicinity. The confusion of tongues led to the Jewish fiction that the air of Babylon and Borsippa caused forgetfulness, and was therefore injurious to students of the Law, causing them to forget it as the builders of the Tower had of old forgotten their speech (Rashi, , 109, 1). This, however, did not prevent the rabbis of Babylon from being more celebrated than those of the Holy Land, and even of Jerusalem itself."
(part 4)
Nolan |
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Was it Paran or Kadesh Barnea? |
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Num 13:3
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Dear Steve, I believe that Kadesh Barnea was a specific location within the wilderness of Paran.
"Paran: Abounding in foliage, or abounding in caverns, (Gen. 21:21), a desert tract forming the north-eastern division of the peninsula of Sinai, lying between the 'Arabah on the east and the wilderness of Shur on the west. It is intersected in a north-western direction by the Wady el-'Arish. It bears the modern name of Badiet et-Tih, i.e., “the desert of the wanderings.” This district, through which the children of Israel wandered, lay three days’ march from Sinai (Num. 10:12, 33). From Kadesh, in this wilderness, spies (q.v.) were sent to spy the land (Num. 13:3, 26). Here, long afterwards, David found refuge from Saul (1 Sam. 25:1, 4)."
"(1.) Holy, or Kadesh-Barnea, sacred desert of wandering, a place on the south-eastern border of Palestine, about 165 miles from Horeb. It lay in the “wilderness” or “desert of Zin” (Gen. 14:7; Num. 13:3-26; 14:29-33; 20:1; 27:14), on the border of Edom (Num. 20:16). From this place, in compliance with the desire of the people, Moses sent forth “twelve spies” to spy the land. After examining it in all its districts, the spies brought back an evil report, Joshua and Caleb alone giving a good report of the land (Num. 13:18-31). Influenced by the discouraging report, the people abandoned all hope of entering into the Promised Land. They remained a considerable time at Kadesh. (See HORMAH; KORAH.) Because of their unbelief, they were condemned by God to wander for thirty-eight years in the wilderness. They took their journey from Kadesh into the deserts of Paran, “by way of the Red Sea” (Deut. 2:1). (One theory is that during these thirty-eight years they remained in and about Kadesh.)
At the end of these years of wanderings, the tribes were a second time gathered together at Kadesh. During their stay here at this time Miriam died and was buried. Here the people murmured for want of water, as their forefathers had done formerly at Rephidim; and Moses, irritated by their chidings, “with his rod smote the rock twice,” instead of “speaking to the rock before their eyes,” as the Lord had commanded him (Compare Num. 27:14; Deut. 9:23; Ps. 106:32, 33). Because of this act of his, in which Aaron too was involved, neither of them was to be permitted to set foot within the Promised Land (Num. 20:12, 24). The king of Edom would not permit them to pass on through his territory, and therefore they commenced an eastward march, and “came unto Mount Hor” (Num. 20:22).
This place has been identified with 'Ain el-Kadeis, about 12 miles east-south-east of Beersheba. (See SPIES.)"
Taken from Easton's Bible Dictionary --Nolan
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Can we agree? |
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Hebrews
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Greetings Kelkat!
Thanks for providing some Scripture for us to discuss. Let's look briefly at each one!
1) Psalm 35:27 - "27 May those who delight in my vindication shout for joy and gladness; may they always say, ‘‘The LORD be exalted, who delights in the well-being of his servant.” "
This Psalm is David's prayer for vindication. He prays that all those who are for him will be blessed (v. 27) and that all those who are against him will be cursed (v. 26). However, there is no promise from God that this will be the case for every believer. It is simply David's prayer.
2) 3 John 2 - "Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well."
Again we have a personal prayer. John is greeting his friend Gaius. Much like we would say over the phone "I hope everything is going well for you", John says that he prays that Gaius will prosper and be in health even as his soul prospers. But, this is not a promise from God for every believer.
3) Deut. 28:12 - "The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none."
This verse is a promise. However, it is a promise to the nation of Israel. I do believe that the general principle behind this promise is true for every nation. If a nation obeys God's commands, God will bless them. However, this is not a promise of individual prosperity for everyone who "claims" it.
4) Deut. 8:18 - " 18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today."
Like above, this verse refers to the blessings of the covenant which God made with Israel, not to individual believers.
5) Phil. 4:19 - "19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus."
This verse is definitely a promise for believers. But, the promise is that God will meet all of our needs, not our wants. A fancy car, a rolex, a mansion, and a million dollars may not be part of God's plan for our lives. He never promised that it would, but He did promise to meet our needs.
6) Ps. 84:11-12 - "11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor;
no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless. 12 O LORD Almighty,
blessed is the man who trusts in you."
This verse is probably a reference again to the covenant. David makes the case in this Psalm that the worst God has to offer is best than the best of this world.
7) Mal. 3:10 - "10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, ‘‘and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."
This verse is a reference to God's command to bring a tithe into the temple. If the people of Israel would obey that command, God would bless their nation. They were not obeying the command, thus they were not being blessed. But, this is not a command or promise addressed to believers (for those who want to discuss tithing, please start another thread). :-)
8) 2 Cor. 9:8 - " 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work."
This verse definitely applies to believers, but like Phil. 4:19, the promise is that God will meet our needs. This refers to the necessaties of life, not the extras.
In summary, while there are many examples here of promises to the nation Israel and promises that God will meet our needs, these fall far short of what "faith" teachers claim for us. No where do these verses say that it is God's will for everyone to be rich or even healthy. No where does it say that we can get whatever we claim by faith.
We are Christ's slaves according to Scripture. We are commanded to spend our lives in anyway that He see fit. If that means that God desires for us to prosper, than so be it. But, in many cases, God's will is that we demonstrate our faith through the difficult times. Through death, loss, sickness, proverty, we are sometimes more able to demonstrate our faith in God. The point is that God is under no obligation to give us whatever we want, but we are under an obligation to trust Him and obey Him in whatever circumstances He sovereignly places us.
What do you think my friend?
Your Brother in Christ,
Tim Moran |
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When did the day of worship change? |
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Acts
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Part II of qoutes from the Fathers.
150AD JUSTIN: There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends, is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor, are we circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers, nor do we observe the Sabbath as you do. (Dialogue with Trypho 10:1. In verse 3 the Jew Trypho acknowledges that Christians 'do not keep the Sabbath.')
· 150AD JUSTIN: We are always together with one another. And for all the things with which we are supplied we bless the Maker of all through his Son Jesus Christ and through his Holy Spirit. And on the day called Sunday there is a gathering together in the same place of all who live in a city or a rural district. (There follows an account of a Christian worship service, which is quoted in VII.2.) We all make our assembly in common on the day of the Sun, since it is the first day, on which God changed the darkness and matter and made the world, and Jesus Christ our Savior arose from the dead on the same day. For they crucified him on the day before Saturn's day, and on the day after (which is the day of the Sun the appeared to his apostles and taught his disciples these things. (Apology, 1, 67:1-3, 7; First Apology, 145 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , Vol. 1, pg. 186)
· 155 AD Justin Martyr "[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you--namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us--I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you [Jews] to keep the Sabbath, and impose on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21).
· 180AD ACTS OF PETER.- Paul had often contended with the Jewish teachers and had confuted them, saying 'it is Christ on whom your fathers laid hands. He abolished their Sabbath and fasts and festivals and circumcision.' (1: I)-2
· 180AD GOSPEL OF PETER: Early in the morning when (he Sabbath dawned, a multitude from Jerusalem and the surrounding country came to see the scaled sepulchre. In the night in which the Lord's day dawned, while the soldiers in pairs for each watch were keeping guard, a great voice came from heaven. [There follows an account of the resurrection. Early in the morning of the Lord's day Mary Magdalene, a disciple of the Lord …. came to the sepulchre. (9:34f.; 12:50f.)
· 190AD CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: (in commenting on each of the Ten Commandments and their Christian meaning:) The seventh day is proclaimed a day of rest, preparing by abstention from evil for the Primal day, our true rest. (Ibid. VII. xvi. 138.1)
· 190AD CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: He does the commandment according to the Gospel and keeps the Lord's day, whenever he puts away an evil mind . . . glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself. (Ibid. Vii.xii.76.4)
· 190AD CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: Plato prophetically speaks of the Lord's day in the tenth book of the Republic, in these words: 'And when seven days have passed to each of them in the meadow, on the eighth they must go on." (Miscellanies V.xiv.106.2)
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How do we open eyes to truth? |
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Deut 7:2
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coop1, hello. Our forefathers may well have had, many of them, a child-like faith in God. Nontheless, they fought tooth and nail to wrest their new country from British tyranny. Pacifists they weren't. --Hank |
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"ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! |
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Matt 22:37
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You write: "In the OT, especially Exodus, God laid the law down to Moses as to how Jews (believers) could get into heaven."
Fact: People in the OT were justified in God's sight (saved) the same way that people in the NT era are justified -- by grace through faith plus nothing (Eph. 2:8-9). By grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. No one was ever saved or justified by keeping the Law. Not in the OT. Not in the NT. Not ever!
Romans 3: 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:1-5
NASB What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
TEV What shall we say, then, of Abraham, the father of our race? What was his experience? If he was put right with God by the things he did, he would have something to boast about—but not in God's sight. The scripture says, "Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." A person who works is paid wages, but they are not regarded as a gift; they are something that has been earned. But those who depend on faith, not on deeds, and who believe in the God who declares the guilty to be innocent, it is this faith that God takes into account in order to put them right with himself.
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Why Matthew 1:8 is different from 1 Chro |
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Matt 1:8
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Greetings again, chengang,
The Zondervan NASB Study Bible states that Matthew quite possibly was 'assuming' those generations that he skipped; using the word "father" in the sense of "forefather."
Blessings to you,
Nolan |
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Drawing the line |
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Col 2:21
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Hi, Tim;
It's called legalism and the comparison with the Pharisees is valid.
I once heard a radio Bible teacher (name of Malcolm Smith maybe?) discuss this at a time when I was a new Christian and really obsessing over what was expected of me. He said that he had grown up in an environment similar to the one you described. He found no joy and no encouragement in his faith only rules. Then he read Jeremiah 31:31-34: '"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."'
He went on to say that he realized that it was his realtionship with God, not adherence to rules, that mattered. He concluded by saying you can put all the religions in the world into a barrel labled "Try and Do"; you can put Christianity all by itself into another barrel labled "Trust and Done".
I nearly drove off the road such was my relief an joy.
Peace and grace,
Steve aka Indiana Jones
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jesus born prior to earth? |
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Heb 13:8
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JMSCOTT
You: "Genesis 5th chapter male and female he created them and called their name man(adam)......Adam was the masculine....eve was the feminine...ad those vowels to yhwh and you have yahweh!"
Me: True, but since Genesis was not written in English, you cannot use this cute little formula.
You: "read verse 13 of exodous moses say's the people will ask what is the name of the god...that sent you...depends on what translation you read....I am or i will to be!...verse 14...then 15 his name......to tell someone they better!"
Me: Correct, but you are ignoring the fact that God taught His character first by requiring Moses to remove his sandals because he was on holy ground and then by identifying Himself as the covenant God of his forefathers. First things first, please.
You: "how can you teach the gospel...which is the word if you can't even tell people what his real name is"
Response: I don't need to be able to pronounce God's Hebrew name. The gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15:3-4).
You: "Fact: if you called jesus, jesus when was with his diciples back then would he have answered you?"
Me: Of course not--nobody spoke English back then.
Steve |
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Whose baptism? |
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John 13:6
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One helpful comment: use paragraphs.
You write:
"Many people don't understand the differnce between the Old and the New Testament. Salvation was given in the New Teatament only."
So Abraham was not saved? Nor Moses? Nor King David?
I think you are mistakenly assuming that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is equivalent to being saved. While all followers of Christ after Pentecost have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, that is not to say that it is the Holy Spirit's indwelling that saves them. Rather, it is the completed work of Christ on the cross which saves all those who have faith in that redemption. In the Old Testament, it was faith in God's coming redemptive plan that saved. We see that explained in Romans 4:
'What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."'
--Romans 4:1-3
So as you quoted Hebrews, the sacrifices never took away sins; Christ did that on the Cross for those who preceded His incarnation as well as for those who followed it.
--Joe! |
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Saved by belief or belief and baptism? |
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NT general
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As a courtesy, please try to use paragraphs more.
You wrote:
'The writer above has it correct by quoting Rom 3:28, but on the flip-side of the coin, James 2:24 says EXPLICITLY that "... a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" There is a huge difference between being justified by faith and being justified by faith ALONE.'
That is what James writes, and Paul writes:
'What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"
--Romans 4:1-5
So we have Paul saying that Abraham is saved through faith APART FROM works, and James saying that Abraham is justified BY his works. How do you reconcile these two passages?
I would recommend a book entitled _Righteous Sinners_ by Ron Julian, to examine the dynamic between God's grace, our faith, and our works. He analyzes both Paul's commentary of Abraham and James' commentary of Abraham.
--Joe!
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purgatory is it true? |
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Matt 22:32
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Emmaus:
You wrote:
"Maybe you can do better with "faith alone." I know where that is in the bible. But it is in James not Paul. Could you quote that for me in its sentence?"
Sure it is in Paul.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
--Ephesians 2:8-9
'What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"
--Romans 4:1-5
How do you reconcile Paul's statements about Abraham in Romans 4 with James' statements about Abraham in James 2? While I have seen way too many Protestants ignoring James, it seems like you are avoiding Paul on this one.
--Joe! |
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purgatory is it true? |
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Matt 22:32
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Emmaus:
You wrote:
"As for Romans 4. Paul NEVER said "faith alone," only Luther's isogesis reads that into the text. Paul preached a faith that was faithful and active in obedience that was received by grace. If there is anything we are saved by alone it is grace."
Yes, grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Let's take a look at Paul ourselves if Luther was so wrong.
'What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness'
--Romans 4:1-5
Was Abraham justified before God by works, according to verse 2? We may be talking about works of the law, which you correctly state as being not given at Sinai at this point, but it is apparent that Paul is not advocating a "different kind of works" here. In any case, can you name a single work required of God which is not included in the law? The law not only covers ceremonial cleanliness and sacrifices, but how to conduct oneself. The Ten Commandments are a part of the law. So are Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18, which taken together are the summation of the law, according to Christ.
We still see that Abraham's faith ALONE was credited as righteousness. In verse 5, Paul makes the distinction crystal clear. Abraham was justified by faith apart from works -- period.
In case there would still be misunderstanding, Paul goes on in the chapter to reiterate the word "believe," distinguishing it from works. This belief does result in works (a point on which you and I agree), but it was the belief itself which God reckoned to Abraham as righteousness (before he was even circumcised). He also uses David as an example as well:
"just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"
--Romans 4:6
Apart from works...That is in keeping with what we see in the previous chapter as well:
"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"
Again, apart from the law, righteousness has been revealed, through faith (nothing else mentioned at all) for all those who believe (nothing else mentioned at all). All fall short, but justification is a GIFT (i.e. not something that is earned, which Paul elaborates upon in Romans 4 when he speaks of wages versus justification by faith apart from works).
The Jews in Paul's day did not hold the dietary laws and circumcision alone to be the key to attaining righteousness from God. The law was taken together as a whole, with the moral law definitely included as the key element to "earning righteousness."
You wrote:
"Abraham's faith was an active responsive faith."
Agreed, the only faith that is true, saving faith.
"Note that Abraham's works could not be works of the law because they were done in faith and before the law was given."
They were works in keeping with the moral law of God, even if the Ten Commandments had not been given in written form. According to Romans 2:13-15,the moral will of God is written on the hearts of all human beings.
I do not argue with the fact that Abraham's works were rooted in faith. I stand with you in saying that true faith produces God-honoring works. However, it is far from reading into the text to say that Abraham's BELIEF in God was credited to him as righteousness. Jesus said so in no uncertain terms:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
--John 5:24
He who believes has eternal life. He who believes will not be judged. He who believes has passed out of death into life. Just like Abraham, who was credited with righteousness from God before he was even circumcised and began to work, so God's children are credited with Christ's righteousness before we even lift a finger to live out our true belief.
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."
--Romans 5:1-2
Yeah, really seems like Luther (and Augustine before him) was really stretching it. :)
--Joe!
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Why not use Yahweh for LORD? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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"all"....and for the record "i"have no definition of the scriptures but jesus does read John 5:39...genesis-malacaih........let me ask this what is his divine name?.....any bible reader knows that he allowed us to call him divine titles....read Exodous..6:3 i use to appear...but now read...again...look moses after the phenomomon at the bush god told moses to go to egypt and tell pharoah let his people go...moses say's who shall i tell them who you are or what is you name...Read Exodous....3:13-15....remember the egytptian are world renound for their gods and names..moses was raised an egytpian....so he asked what is your name...at that time he did not know..now he knew forever!to all generations..not just to the israelites...have you been a witness to the original writings?...any hebrew alive today know.....that yahweh is god's divine name..they are just afraid to use it like their forefathers......Jeremiah 23:26-27....it has never been your or my definition of what the scriptures are ....it is god's definition!Acts 2:21 and Joel 2:32...and by the way who divided the bible into the old testament and new testament man or God? |
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Is the Promised Land the Israel of today |
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Hebrews
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With all due respect, I must say this is nonesense. Especially this sentence....." Should remember that only our deeds will place us in his book of life,"
Please consider Gods Word:
Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast".
Rom 11:5 "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."
Rom 9:30 "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Rom 4:1 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"
Jn 6:28 "Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
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A Study of John's Gospel. |
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John 1:1
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that is what I meant when I said read Romans 9-11.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles who did not follow after righteousness [who did not seek salvation by right relationship to God] have attained it by faith [a righteousness imputed by God, based on and produced by faith],
Rom 9:31 Whereas Israel, though ever in pursuit of a law [for the securing] of righteousness (right standing with God), actually did not succeed in fulfilling the Law. [Isa. 51:1.]
Rom 10:19 Again I ask, Did Israel not understand? [Did the Jews have no warning that the Gospel was to go forth to the Gentiles, to all the earth?] First, there is Moses who says, I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry. [Deut. 32:21.]
Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown (revealed) Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me. [Isa. 65:1.]
Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, All day long I have stretched out My hands to a people unyielding and disobedient and self-willed [to a faultfinding, contrary, and contradicting people]. [Isa. 65:2.]
Rom 11:2 No, God has not rejected and disowned His people [whose destiny] He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [Ps. 94:14; I Kings 19.]
Rom 11:28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you--through you as messengers of the Gospel to them]. |
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24 hour days are based on what? |
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Gen 1:2
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The statement is made from the first day.. evening and morning were the first day. This is written at a time after the creation by Moses. Just as when Moses stated ... that Cain dwelt in the land of Nod, not that it was called Nod when Cain dwelt in it. It became Nod much much later. But Moses was just identifying the area. Just as if you said my Indian forefathers dwelt in Dallas, not that it was caled Dallas when they were there. So this reference also is from Moses that the evening and the morning were the first day when as yet there was no son or moon. However by making the statment the evening and the morning were the first day he is making it clear beyond all question that it was not ages or eons that is meant but an evening and a morning.
May God bless you in your study of His Word. |
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24 hour days are based on what? |
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Gen 1:2
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The statement is made from the first day.. evening and morning were the first day. This is written at a time after the creation by Moses. Just as when Moses stated ... that Cain dwelt in the land of Nod, not that it was called Nod when Cain dwelt in it. It became Nod much much later. But Moses was just identifying the area. Just as if you said my Indian forefathers dwelt in Dallas, not that it was caled Dallas when they were there. So this reference also is from Moses that the evening and the morning were the first day when as yet there was no son or moon. However by making the statment the evening and the morning were the first day he is making it clear beyond all question that it was not ages or eons that is meant but an evening and a morning.
May God bless you in your study of His Word. |
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Sealing of the 144,000? |
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Rev 14:1
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Romans 11:1-36 (ESV)
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? [3] "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." [4] But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [5] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. [6] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
[7] What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, [8] as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day."
[9] And David says,
"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
[10] let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever."
[11] So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. [12] Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
[13] Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
[14] in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? [16] If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
[17] But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, [18] do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. [19] Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." [20] That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. [21] For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. [22] Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. [23] And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. [24] For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
[25] Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [26] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
[27] "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
[28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [30] Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. [32] For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
[33] Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
[34] "For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
[35] "Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"
[36] For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. |
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Sealing of the 144,000? |
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Rev 14:1
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HI Steve
I understand your thinking on this point. Many people even some Christians think this way.But ( there is always a big But :) )
Matthew21:42-
42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[8] ;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'[9] ?
43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[10]
45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Matthew 23:27-
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[4] "
Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[1] ? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[2] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[3]
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[4] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[5]
How do these scriptures compare to Romans 11. At first glance it looks like a contradiction. But it is not.
First of all, the scriptures in Matthew says that God has cast off the nation of Israel. Now in Romans it mentions that God would never abandon his people. Here it is talking about a remnant people not the whole nation,these remnant were the first Jews that followed Christ, and was opened up to the Gentiles also.Thus the Gentiles also becoming spiritual Jews. Which I quoted in an earlier post.So now anyone has the opportunity become a part of Gods Kingdom.
jme
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Where does Jesus say He is God? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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"Well, neither has happened,..."
Nancy:
You write: "Jesus was an apocalyptisist, who, sincerely believing in the scriptures of his time, continued on to warn people of the end of the world, or at the least, the destruction of Jerusalem. Well, neither has happened,..."
Thank you, Nancy. You have just fulfilled Bible prophecy.
2 Pet 3:3-4
(New American Standard Bible) Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.
(Amplified Bible)To begin with, you must know and understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, [people who] walk after their own fleshly desires and say, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the forefathers fell asleep, all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation. |
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Whom should I direct my love and praise |
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John 14:5
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gk, see John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And verse 14,The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. What this says to me is that Jesus is the Word of God. He was with God in the beginning and will always be with God. When we get to be with God we will be with Jesus, because they are the same. Here is a passage from Hebrews, (1:1-3a) 1.In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2.but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3.The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. O-kay? Now we need to be careful about the bibles we read concerning this, because some translations are what we call "paraphrased" and use a lot of freedom in getting the point across, so some of these versions actually say that the Son is a reflection of God's glory. this is wrong, that would be saying that if God were the sun, Jesus would be the moon, since the moon does not give off any light of it's own. More accurately, Jesus is the REFULGENCE (brilliant radiance) of God's glory. The two are both equal parts of the Holy Trinity, the Triune God that consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I hope this helps you, May our Lord bless you
and keep you; may He make his face shine upon you
and be gracious to you; may the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace. Tim
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Different |
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John 3:16
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Annaciah, since your first statement is false, all the rest of you post is based on falsehood.
There was only one LAW.
Read 1 Kings 11 to see what God thinks of following different religions. It cost Soloman's decendants the kingdom.
Peter said :
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved.
Heb 1:1 IN MANY separate revelations [each of which set forth a portion of the Truth] and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 [But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order].
Heb 1:3 He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,
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What does Hebrews 8 Mean? |
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Lev 17:11
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In order to understand Heb. 8, you must read chapters 1-7 because Heb. 8:1 begins with "The point of what we are saying is this: . . ." How can we understand the "point" of chapter 8 without reading what lead up to it?
The first 4 chapters discuss the superiority of Christ's person over the prophets; over the angels in His deity and humanity; over Moses in His work and person. Chapters 4-10 discuss the superiority of His work: His priesthood, His covenant, His sanctuary and sacrifice.
Chapter 8 deals primarily with Christ's covenant being superior to the Mosaic covenant, i.e. the Law. Verses 6-9 state: "But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs (the priests of vv 4-5) as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: ‘The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord'."
Verses 10-12 tell us what that new covenant is: "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Then verse 13 reveals God's view of the old covenant: "By calling this covenant ‘new,' He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."
What was the purpose of the Law? Gal. 3:19, 24-25 tells us: "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator"; "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
Before you allow people to put you under the obligation of keeping the Law, I suggest you consider these few verses: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal 3:10); "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all;" (James 2:10); "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16). Lastly, Romans 10:3-4: "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Be sure to read Acts 15. Certain men of Judaea and a group of Pharisees said the Gentile Christians of Antioch had to be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses in order to be saved. (Notice Peter's words in v. 10 concerning the Law.) But they were wrong in their requirements, as you'll see when you read the entire chapter.
God bless you as you continue your life in the Lord Jesus Christ. BTW, have you ever taken a Concordance and looked up all the references pertaining to your new life, i.e. being "in Christ" and what that entails? It's awesome!
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How were ppl saved before Jesus came? |
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Heb 11:6
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Nope. Those who came before Jesus' earthly ministry were saved via his substitutionary death on the Cross as well.
Now, of course, the means of their justification wasn't as clear to them as is it to us who look back at the event rather than forward to it. However, God did reveal a coming redemption from Genesis 3:15 on. Throughout the Old Testament the coming Redeemer was foreshadowed and prefigured in the prophecies and in the sacrificial system under the Mosaic Covenant. However, faith in God's provision for our sins was the instrument through which the Old Testament saints were saved as well.
Paul addresses this in Romans:
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.'
--Romans 4:1-5
Abraham was saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in God's promised redemption alone, just like we are. The Redeemer has been clearly revealed by God to us, but God's redemption has always been placed before His people.
--Joe! |
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spiritual healing or physical healing? |
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Is 53:6
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Aristarchus
Your absolutely right in most of what you said. But there is one thing you didn't say and it is very important to this discussion. God is sovereign and God will or will not heal according to his divine purpose and pleasure. Too many use the scripture of Isaiah 53 saying God HAS to heal every believer, and that simply is not true!
Jesus didn't come to provide for our physical healing He came for our spiritual healing. Physical healing has always been available
Exodus 15:26
And He said, "If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have put on the Egyptians; for I, THE LORD, AM YOUR HEALER." (emphasis mine)
Deut. 7:12-15
"Then it shall come about, because you listen to these judgments and keep and do them, that the LORD your God will keep with you His covenant and His lovingkindness which He swore to your forefathers. "He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you. "You shall be blessed above all peoples; there will be no male or female barren among you or among your cattle. "The LORD will remove from you ALL (emphasis mine) sickness; and He will not put on you any of the harmful diseases of Egypt which you have known, but He will lay them on all who hate you.
To me it sounds like the people of Israel could have lived disease free had they obeyed God. However they still needed spiritual healing (salvation).
We also know God used sickness to punish apart from the curse, as in the case of the plagues of Egypt and as seen in
Leviticus 26:16
I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.
Deut. 28:60
"He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you.
Spiritual healing and physical healing are two different subjects and we get into real trouble when we try to make a passage talking about salvation or spiritual healing into a passage on physical healing.
EdB
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