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Are the unevangelized people really lost |
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Rom 2:15
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Are the unevangelized people really lost?
. . . Yes, they are. How shall they believe? "...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31) It follows then that not to believe is not to be saved. "...And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?..." (Rom 10:14 NKJV).
Is God's judgment upon the unevanglized a just judgment?
. . . Yes, it is. Romans 2:2 "But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things."
. . . What have the unevangelized done to deserve such condemnation?
. . . "God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them" (Rom 1:19 TEV)
. . . Today's English Version Romans 1:18-32
. . . God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain. Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all! They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools; instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.
. . . And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts. In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing.
. . .
Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do. They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents; they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others. They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them.
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Blue marbles roll faster than red ones |
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Rev 19:4
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Thank you for challenging me to look the urantia book up. It was very informative. It kind of reminded me of L.Ron Hubbard's Dianetics mixed with the teachings of the church latter-day saints (mormons). I can't say that I agree with your assesment of it value, however. 2 Cor 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (NAS;lockman foundation)
The most effective lie, is that which contains some truth in it. I believe that the Urantia Book is clever scheme of our adversary, the devil, to distract us from truly finding the truth. John 8:31-32 ( So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." NAS;lockman foundation)
Joseph Smith had a vision. He was visited by the angel moroni, this angel gave him instructions to write what became known as the book of mormon. I believe Joseph. I think he did see an angel. However, I believe he saw a fallen angel, a demon. 1 Tim 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (NAS;lockman foundation)
We need to be carefull what we accept as truth and test everything.
1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."(NAS;lockman foundation)
I am willing to listen to any biblical evidence that you have that might support your theories on the book of urantia being part of "Holy Scripture".
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Was the wine alcoholic or not |
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John 2:10
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You are correct, I should have quoted it in its entirety, but I don't think that it changes the point that I was making. Nor do I think that by omitting it I was in any way deceitful, or handling the Word of God falsely. However if I have please show me and I will learn. I believe that this is one example of a technique that God uses often in scriptures by following a point with a magnification or explanation. "Wherein is excess" points back to "drunk with wine" explaining that the excess is the problem not the drinking of the wine. This is one way that the Bible is the best commentary on the Bible. |
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Was the wine alcoholic or not |
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John 2:10
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I'm sorry if I implied that you were being deceitful. I did not mean that. I only meant that, as you correctly indicate, the focus was on the 'excess'. I felt this was important because of the normal followup comments we often hear from non-believers. I expect that unbelievers read the comments found on this site as well as believers.
Although we have liberty in Christ for things not condemned in scripture, some things I elect not to do. Some of my Brothers have asked, "if it is alcoholic, does that mean drinking is OK?" I believe that although I have the liberty in Christ to drink the wine, I elect not to, particularly in public because, 1.) my witness before unbelievers will be harmed and thus my Lord will be harmed; 2.) Alcoholic beverages dull the senses and effect my ability to determine what is 'Excess'. I prefer personally to avoid the pitfalls. Others may disagree and that is their liberty.
Please forgive me if I have harmed your spirit in any way.
God bless you. |
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Was the wine alcoholic or not |
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John 2:10
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No offense taken at all. I just don't ever want to use the Word of God deceitfully. I am thankful for someone taking the time to read my responses and helping to make them clearer. My dear wife does it with such grace that I have come to appreciate it. |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear EveryHome, Opening up my mail just prior to bedtime is terrible! I read your answer with great interest. Though I 'abstain' from any capital 'X' label, I appreciate your Arminian views. I also believe in the possibility of apostacy, but I don't believe it is very easy. Overall, I must say that I think you are giving Satan more power than he has been given. I think this has always been the case. As a master of deceit, his most powerful weapon is that of confusing and frightening God's people. I stand by my statement that study of God's end-time plan is fine, and 'seeing through' the false prophets and false 'christs' is necessary, but submitting to sensationalism is definitely not productive. It does seem to me that some of these 'false christs' will use the 'rapture' for their purposes. A good end-time teaching will give you the ability to prepare for the coming of Jesus where you are. When they teach you to 'come over here,' I am wary. "...I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12 NASB I am certain that God would not allow Satan to put us through a tribulation that we could not stand.
So...live in Christ Jesus.
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Ideal, but prerequisite? |
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1 Timothy
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It is written: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage..." 1 Tim 3:1-4 NASB |
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what does this mean, is there no hope? |
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Heb 6:4
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Angala,
Hebrews 6:6 has been a constant theme throughout the entire Bible. At the end of chapter 5, the writer tells his readers to get back to the basics and know the foundations of the faith. “…you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again” (5:12). So in that context, the writer briefly goes over it again, “Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death…” (6:1). The fact of the matter is, if you truly repent in your heart and turn back to God, He will always forgive you and save you. Repentance and salvation is the basic theme in the Old Testament and in the New Testament (look at Israel, how many times they’ve turned away but in the end God will save them (Rom 11:26). So Hebrews 6:4-6 is applied to those who have fallen away and will NOT repent and turn back to God.
So concerning the subject of “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6), the Bible never says nor gives the impression that once saved you are "always" saved, and that you’ll never ever be able to turn away from God and lose your salvation. (Yes, of course once you are IN heaven, you will be "always saved" - that's true eternal security!). Let’s face it, the experienced mentioned in 6:4-5 describe a person completely saved. You don’t become “enlightened” or “taste of the heavenly gift” or “share in the Holy Spirit” and not be saved. That is what being saved is all about. Plus, this entire passage speaks nothing of “non-commitment.” No offense to JVH0212(I love you and bless you), but the scriptures he/she gave, in their context, do not support anything concerning once saved always saved. The experiences described were to show how stupid they are to turn away from God after having HAD experienced all that! Why do you think there are so many warnings for those who might fall away or have fallen away? In fact, the Bible explicitly speaks of those who will fall away. The writer of Hebrews himself even warns his readers of it in chapter 3! “See to it brother, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another daily… so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness” (Heb 3:12). Paul warns Timothy, “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1Tim 1:18-20)…“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (1Tim 4:1),” and then also again in 1Timothy 6:21. Paul again writes Timothy and warns of these who have “wandered away from the truth”, “Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from truth (2Tim 2:17-18).” Paul knows these people who were once working with him and were saved but have fallen away. “Do you best to come to me quickly, for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica (2 Tim 4:9).” Peter (the one who denied Jesus three times) wrote, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are AGAIN entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning (2Peter2:20).” Why would Jesus warn us of false prophets and teachers who will try to deceive us if we weren’t able to possibly turn away? (Matt 7:15; 24:4). To make a long subject short, why would God bring you to Heaven if you don’t want to go? I myself, have known close friends who have turned away from God because they would rather have the things of this world and sin; they no longer want to live for God nor do they even want to believe in Him anymore. That’s how deceived they are, and they were once so saved. We can’t read scripture through rose-colored glasses. So many people are going to hell living their lives of sin and wickedness thinking they’re going to heaven because they can’t lose their salvation. I use to be one of them. I thank God that He brought me back to repentance again.
Just keep loving Jesus and continue living for Him, keep your eyes on Him and cast off all the junk that might hinder you from doing that (Heb 12:1-2).
Jesus Liberation,
nameless
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Are you saying that I have a hard heart? |
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Luke 16:19
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Are you saying that I have a hard heart because I question YOUR interpretation?
Time and again we are told to test the spirits and search the scriptures:
1 John 4:1 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
Because…
1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Galatians 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
You said that we would judge during the Millennial Kingdom without any scriptural reference to back it up. I want t know where you came to that conclusion.
It seems that the Bible is clear. It says we will judge angels and everyone else. Where will or could that happen? Where else but at the Great White Throne?
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Have I misunderstood your question? |
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John 6:56
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You seem to have the right idea.
2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vaindeceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world,and not after Christ.
2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
You see the fulness of the Godhead, (seat of authority) was in Christ, (anionted) the man Christ Jesus. We have an omnipotent, omnipresent,
omniscient God. The development of the trinity
doctrine can be traced in church history, no matter how much you try to divide or limit God
scripture is clear, there is one God and he is Spirit. |
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Defining Truth |
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Josh 10:12
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Prov 17:28 Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise;
When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.
(Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.)
Prov 15:14 The mind of the intelligent seeks knowledge,
But the mouth of fools feeds on folly.
Prov 20:3 Keeping away from strife is an honor for a man,
But any fool will quarrel.
Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Prov 1:22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
Prov 1:32 "For the waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
Prov 3:35 The wise will inherit honor,
But fools display dishonor.
Prov 8:5 "O naive ones, understand prudence;
And, O fools, understand wisdom.
Prov 10:1 The proverbs of Solomon.
A wise son makes a father glad,
But a foolish son is a grief to his mother.
Prov 10:8 The wise of heart will receive commands,
But a babbling fool will be ruined.
Prov 10:10 He who winks the eye causes trouble,
And a babbling fool will be ruined.
Prov 10:14 Wise men store up knowledge,
But with the mouth of the foolish, ruin is at hand.
Prov 10:21 The lips of the righteous feed many,
But fools die for lack of understanding.
Prov 11:29 He who troubles his own house will inherit wind,
And the foolish will be servant to the wisehearted.
Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.
Prov 12:16 A fool's anger is known at once,
But a prudent man conceals dishonor.
Prov 12:23 A prudent man conceals knowledge,
But the heart of fools proclaims folly.
Prov 13:16 Every prudent man acts with knowledge,
But a fool displays folly.
Prov 13:20 He who walks with wise men will be wise,
But the companion of fools will suffer harm.
Prov 14:3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod for his back,
But the lips of the wise will protect them.
Prov 14:7 Leave the presence of a fool,
Or you will not discern words of knowledge.
Prov 14:8 The wisdom of the sensible is to understand his way,
But the foolishness of fools is deceit.
Prov 14:16 A wise man is cautious and turns away from evil,
But a fool is arrogant and careless.
Prov 14:18 The naive inherit foolishness,
But the sensible are crowned with knowledge.
Prov 14:24 The crown of the wise is their riches,
But the folly of fools is foolishness.
Prov 15:2 The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable,
But the mouth of fools spouts folly.
Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise spread knowledge,
But the hearts of fools are not so.
Prov 16:22 Understanding is a fountain of life to one who has it,
But the discipline of fools is folly.
Prov 17:10 A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding
Than a hundred blows into a fool.
Prov 17:16 Why is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom,
When he has no sense?
Prov 17:24 Wisdom is in the presence of the one who has understanding,
But the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth.
Prov 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
Prov 18:7 A fool's mouth is his ruin,
And his lips are the snare of his soul.
Prov 19:1 Better is a poor man who walks in his integrity
Than he who is perverse in speech and is a fool.
Prov 23:9 Do not speak in the hearing of a fool,
For he will despise the wisdom of your words.
Prov 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.
Prov 26:5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.
Prov 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit
Is a fool who repeats his folly.
Prov 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Prov 28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But he who walks wisely will be delivered.
Prov 29:9 When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man,
The foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest.
Prov 29:20 Do you see a man who is hasty in his words?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.
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Why was Paul accused of promoting evil? |
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Rom 3:8
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Good question Hank! Here's an excerpt from Matthew Henry's Commentary explaining this verse:"The former objection is repeated and prosecuted (v. 7,8), for proud hearts will hardly be beaten out of their refuge of lies, but will hold fast the deceit. But his setting off the objection in its own colors is sufficient to answer it: If the truth of God has more abounded through my lie. He supposes the sophisters to follow their objection thus: "If my lie, that is, my sin" (for there is something of a lie in every sin, especially in the sins of professors) "have occasioned the glorifying of God's truth and faithfulness, why should I be judged and condemned as a sinner, and not rather thence take encouragement to go on in my sin, that grace may abound?" an inference which at first sight appears too black to be argued, and fit to be cast out with abhorrence. Daring sinners take occasion to boast in mischief, because the goodness of God endures continually, Ps. 52:1. Let us do evil that good may come is oftener in the heart than in the mouth of sinners, so justifying themselves in their wicked ways. Mentioning this wicked thought, he observes, in a parenthesis, that there were those who charged such doctrines as this upon Paul and his fellow-ministers: Some affirm that we say so. It is no new thing for the best of God's people and ministers to be charged with holding and teaching such things as they do most detest and abhor; and it is not to be thought strange, when our Master himself was said to be in league with Beelzebub. Many have been approached as if they had said that the contrary of which they maintain: it is an old artifice of Satan thus to cast dirt upon Christ's ministers and lay slander thickly on, for some will be sure to stick. The best men and the best truths are subject to slander. Blasphemy in scripture usually signifies the highest degree of slander, speaking ill of God. The slander of a minister and his regular doctrine is a more than ordinary slander, it is a kind of blasphemy, not for his person's sake, but for his calling's sake and his work's sake, 1 Thess. 5:13."From page 2199 of Matthew Henry's Unabridged Commentary on the Whole Bible (Hendrickson). |
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Who knows? |
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Rev 21:27
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Greetings Charis!
I appreciated your comments! There is nothing wrong with being firm in one's beliefs. However, we all too often become dogmatic on things that Scripture is not dogmatic about. The "book of life" occurs six times in the book of Revelation. They are:
1) Rev. 3:5 - "He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."
2) Rev. 13:8 - "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."
3) Rev. 17:8 - "The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come."
4) Rev. 20:12 - "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
5) Rev. 20:15 - "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
6) Rev. 21:27 - "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."
There are only a couple of statements of fact that can be made from these references.
a) The "book of life" is more than just the "book of the living." I have heard some say that the "book of life" is nothing more than a list of those who are or have been alive. However, the references above make it pretty clear that it refers to a list of believers. (How a believer is listed in the book is not explained!)
b) Those who are listed in the book will not worship the Beast.
c) Those whoare listed in the book will not be astonished (like the world) when the Beast appears.
d) The "book of life" will be instrumental at judgement in some fashion.
e) Those who are not listed in the "book of life" will face eternity in hell.
f) Only those recorded in the "book of life" will enter the Kingdom of God.
This seems to be about all that can dogmatically be said about the "book of life."
Your Brother in Christ,
Tim Moran |
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After Salvation, What? |
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Luke 9:23
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Well, let's see:
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.'" (1 Peter 1:14-16)
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)
"Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. (1 Peter 2:1-3)
"the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked." (1 John 2:6)
"Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ." (Ephesians 5:15-21)
Pretty tall order, wouldn't you say? How in my weakness can all this be accomplished?
"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you." (Philippians 4:8-9)
"O how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day...
How sweet are Your words to my taste!
Yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
From Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way." (Psalm 119:97, 103-104)
"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:1-2)
"My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever." (Psalm 73:25)
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16)
SUMMARY: Just as the Holy Spirit works through the Word of God to regenerate the sinner, resulting in justification, so also the Holy Spirit and the Word of God are the essential components of the believer's sanctification. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less!
In addition, those who truly possess saving faith also will be gradually growing in holiness and righteousness, beoming more like Christ, a process that glorifies God and will only become complete when we ourselves are glorified at the Resurrection.
Any other verses you folks want to share? Sanctification is one of the least-emphasized doctrines in the church today. Much emphasis is placed on evangelism and "soul-winning," but so little on developing as disciples of Christ. Thanks for bringing up the topic, Hank!
--Joe! |
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Why is Elijah hidden so suddenly? |
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1 Kin 17:3
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In verse 1 Elijah is making a prophecy; and second, whom the prophecy is really from. Elijah warns the ruling couple that their domain will experience a famine for years and that Baal's cult of deceit would face the challenge of all time. Elijah must of wanted to run through the city and warn the people of God's impending judgement. Elijah must of had great courage too, because the ruling couple were none other than the murderous, God hating Ahab and his wife Jezebel. God, however, had other plans and commanded Elijah to go and hide himself by the brook of Cherith.
There could be two reasons for this command. First, it was for Elijah's protection. In 18:10 it states that there was no kingdom or nation that the wrathful Ahab had not searched to find Elijah
Second, it was for Elijah's training, to provide time alone with God in "boot camp". God had great works for Elijah to do and to do these works God needed time to train him for these tasks. To rely solely on God and know that God would provide for all his needs. (taken from Life and Times of Elijah by Charles Swindol) prayon
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Details on the Armor of God? |
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Eph 6:11
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Greetings Bobbie!
The Amplified Bible puts it this way in verse 11, "Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil."
In verses 13-18, the Amplified states, "Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].
14 Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and moral rectitude and right standing with God,
15 And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace. [Isa. 52:7.]
16 Lift up over all the [covering] shield of saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].
17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.
18 Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people)."
The Amplified goes into a lot more detail here, and it could possibly help you out a little more when explaining it to children!
Blessings,
Nolan |
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a lie is a lie is a lie... |
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Bible general Archive 1
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A while ago I would have agreed with you one hundred percent that a lie is a lie is a lie, and it's sin. But I believe that when truth will do someone harm it is best to be silent on the subject. I'll explain why.
Norrie had a point when she said that the the 9th commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor" is predominantly what God means when He speaks of "hating a liar". (See Ex. 23:1-2) And Jesus again states "Thou shalt not bear false witness". Paul also states it in Romans. God does not want us hurting one another.
Both the Hebrew and the Greek words that are used in those verses mean something deceitful, or offering falsehood which harms another person, or an untruth (without cause), and these same words are translated in other areas of the bible as "lying" "liar" etc. [These [sheqer,shaqar, pseudomartureo]words and their base words are the most common words translated lie, etc.]
The verse that says God doesn't lie uses a different word meaning to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood. The verse that says God hates a liar uses the word meaning falsifier.
All seem to imply that there is intent to do harm by speaking false words. So it would seem that any words that cause harm to another would be "false witness" and therefore sin.
Perhaps that is why Abraham was not "punished" for lying, and Sarah too. It was not done to cause harm to anyone else.
And in that same sense it would not be wrong to protect the Jews or your children from evil men using such words.
You said:
Abraham's lie Abimelech is not either. Look at the consequences of his lie (vv 17-18).
I'm not sure what you mean in that first sentence, but the consequences of Abraham's lie did NOT fall on HIS shoulders. He was not held accoutable to pay for the lie. Abimelech on the other hand was held accountable for believing Abraham and Sarah's lie though. But I think this has more to do with the ultimate will of God than Abimelech's "wrongdoing".
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Is the KJV "Supreme"? |
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Ps 12:6
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Here are a few excerpts from the original Preface to the 1611 Authorized Version (King James Bible).
"TRANSLATION NECESSARY
But how shall men meditate in that which they cannot understand: How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknown tongue? As it is written, Except I know the power of the voice, I shall be to him that speaketh, a Barbarian, and he that speaketh, shall be a Barbarian to me. The Apostle excepteth no tongue; not Hebrew the ancientest, not Greek the most copious, not Latin the finest. Nature taught a natural man to confess, that all of us in those tongues which we do not understand, are plainly deaf; we may turn the deaf ear unto them. The Scythian counted the Athenian, whom he did not understand, barbarous: so the Roman did the Syrian, and the Jew (even S. Jerome himself calleth the Hebrew tongue barbarous, belike because it was strange to so many), so the Emperor of Constantinople calleth the Latin tongue barbarous, though Pope Nicholas do storm at it: so the Jews long before Christ, called all other nations, Lognazim, which is little better than barbarous. Therefore as one complaineth, that always in the Senate of Rome, there was one or other that called for an interpreter: so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readiness. Translation it is that openeth the window, to let in the light; that breaketh the shell, that we may eat the kernel; that putteth aside the curtain, that we may look into the most Holy place; that removeth the cover of the well, that we may come by the water, even as Jacob rolled the stone from the mouth of the well, by which means the flocks of Laban were watered. Indeed without translation into the vulgar tongue, the unlearned are but like children at Jacob's well (which was deep) without a bucket or some thing to draw with: or as that person mentioned by Isaiah, to whom when a sealed book was delivered, with this motion, Read this, I pray thee, he was fain to make this answer, I cannot, for it is sealed.
THE UNWILLINGNESS OF OUR CHIEF ADVERSARIES, THAT THE SCRIPTURES SHOULD BE DIVULGED IN THE MOTHER TONGUE,.
Now the Church of Rome would seem at the length to bear motherly affection towards her children, and to allow them the Scriptures in their mother tongue: but indeed it is a gift, not deserving to be called a gift, an unprofitable gift: they must first get a License in writing before they may use them, and to get that, they must approve themselves to their Confessor, that is, to be such as are, if not frozen in the dregs, yet soured with Leaven of their superstition. Howbeit, it seemed too much to Clement the 8. That there should be any License granted to have them in the vulgar tongue, and therefore he overruleth and frustrateth the grant of Pius the fourth. So much are they afraid of the light of the Scripture (Lucifugæ Scripturarum, as Tertullian speaketh), that they will not trust the people with it, no not as it is set forth by their own sworn men, no not with the License of their own Bishops and Inquisitors. Yea, so unwilling they are to communicate the Scriptures to the people's understanding in any sort, that they are not ashamed to confess, that we forced them to translate it into English against their wills. This seemeth to argue a bad cause, or a bad conscience, or both. Sure we are, that it is not he that hath good gold, that is afraid to bring it to the touchstone, but he that hath the counterfeit; neither is it the true man that shunneth the light, but the malefactor, lest his deeds should be reproved: neither is it the plain dealing Merchant that is unwilling to have the weights, or the meteyard brought in place, but he that useth deceit. But we will let them alone for this fault, and return to translation."
Posted with the help of Theophilos Bible Software
--Nolan (post #1611)
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Is the KJV "Supreme"? |
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Ps 12:6
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Dear Hank, yes!! The KJV is a priceless jewel that shines for all time! And its spectrum of light continues to enrich and lighten the voids of the human spirit. Here is a little more from the 1611 Preface..
"THE SPEECHES AND REASONS, BOTH OF OUR BRETHREN, AND OF OUR ADVERSARIES, AGAINST THIS WORK
Many men's mouths have been open a good while (and yet are not stopped) with speeches about the Translations so long in hand, or rather perusals of Translations made before: and ask what may be the reason, what the necessity of the employment: Hath the Church been deceived, say they, all this while? Hath her sweet bread been mingled with leaven, her silver with dross, her wine with water, her milk with lime? (Lacte gypsum malè miscetur, saith S. Ireney.) We hoped that we had been in the right way, that we had had the Oracles of God delivered unto us, and that though all the world had cause to be offended and to complain, yet that we had none. Hath the nurse holden out the breast, and nothing but wind in it? Hath the bread been delivered by the fathers of the Church, and the same proved to be lapidosus, as Seneca speaketh? What is it to handle the word of God deceitfully, if this be not? Thus certain brethren. Also the adversaries of Judah and Jerusalem, like Sanballat in Nehemiah, mock, as we hear, both at the work and workmen, saying; What do these weak Jews? Will they make the stones whole again out of the heaps of dust which are burnt? Although they build, yet if a fox go up, he shall even break down their stony wall. Was their Translation good before? Why do they now mend it? Was it not good? Why then was it obtruded to the people? Yea, why did the Catholics (meaning Popish Romanists) always go in jeopardy, for refusing to go to hear it? Nay, if it must be translated into English, Catholics are fittest to do it. They have learning, and they know when a thing is well, they can manum de tabulâ. We will answer them both briefly: and the former, being brethren, thus, with S. Jerome, Damnamus veteres? Minimè, sed post priorum studia in domo Domini quod possumus laboramus. That is, Do we condemn the ancient? In no case: but after the endeavors of them that were before us, we take the best pains we can in the house of God. As if he said, Being provoked by the example of the learned that lived before my time, I have thought it my duty, to assay whether my talent in the knowledge of the tongues, may be profitable in any measure to God's Church, lest I should seem to have labored in them in vain, and lest I should be thought to glory in men, (although ancient,) above that which was in them. Thus S. Jerome may be thought to speak."
--Nolan (if you would like to read more of the Preface, then contact me through e-mail.) |
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Is the KJV "Supreme"? |
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Ps 12:6
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Dear Hank, I agree! The KJV will always stand alone in history as the first English Bible! What an excellent way to represent the English language..
You have made reference to a few verses, and I'll put them side by side with the NASB equivalent just to see how far English has come in 400 years.
(KJV) Psalm 5:6 "Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
(NASB) Psalm 5:6 "You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit."
(KJV) 1 Kings 11:1 "But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;"
(NASB) 1 Kings 11:1 "Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women,"
(KJV) Ezekiel 27:25 "The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas."
(NASB) Ezekiel 27:25 "The ships of Tarshish were the carriers for your merchandise. And you were filled and were very glorious In the heart of the seas."
Indeed, the KJV can retire alongside the Vulgate, receiving its due share of unprecedented fame and grandeur, leaving a legacy that will never be matched.. Leaving the scene for these new translations to make their way.
--Nolan
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Why do translators identify 2 individals |
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Dan 9:27
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Hi w123, I'm more of a 321 person but let me give you my view of the translations here.
It is the age-old study of He and he or One and one. Daniel 9:26, "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing (no one) or as NKJ (no one)"for Himself."
The verse goes on to talk about the prince, the evil one, in the NASB. The NKJ for verse 27 introduces due to its literary style a confusing "He shall bring to an end" to go along with the "he shall confirm a covenant" in the beginning of the verse.
You can see a similar confusing example of *He or he* when you look at Daniel 8:24 and 25. For we see that the true understanding is that "he will destroy mighty men and the holy people", and "he will cause deceit to succeed by his influence", and "he will even oppose the *Prince of princes."
By the way, use your 123 and see if the prayer found in Daniel 9:4-20 is not divisible by three.
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Hosea 11:12 translations |
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Hos 11:12
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Hello mollahk!
Here are some different translations for Hosea 11:12..
(ASV) Ephraim compasseth me about with falsehood, and the house of Israel with deceit; but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the Holy One.
(Darby) Ephraim encompasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit; but Judah yet walketh with *God, and with the holy things of truth.
(Douay Rheims) Ephraim hath compassed me about with denials, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Juda went down as a witness with God, and is faithful with the saints.
(FLS) (12:1) Éphraïm m'entoure de mensonge, Et la maison d'Israël de tromperie; Juda est encore sans frein vis-à-vis de Dieu, Vis-à-vis du Saint fidèle.
(GLB) In Ephraim ist allenthalben Lügen wider mich und im Hause Israel falscher Gottesdienst. Aber auch Juda hält nicht fest an Gott und an dem Heiligen, der treu ist.
(Hebrew) (12:1) ynbbs vxkb Myrpa hmrmbw tyb larvy hdwhyw de dr la-Me Myvwdq-Mew .Nman
(KJV) Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
(LITV) Ephraim circles around Me with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit; but Judah still rules with God and is faithful with the saints.
(MKJV) Ephraim circles around Me with lying, and the house of Israel with deceit. But Judah still rules with God, and is faithful with the saints.
(NASB) "12 Ephraim surrounds Me with lies And the house of Israel with deceit; Judah is also unruly against God, Even against the Holy One who is faithful."
(NKJV) 12 “Ephraim has encircled Me with lies, And the house of Israel with deceit; But Judah still walks with God, Even with the £Holy One who is faithful."
(NAB) (12:1) Ephraim has surrounded me with lies, the house of Israel, with deceit; Judah is still rebellious against God, against the Holy One, who is faithful.
(PJFA) Efraim me cercou com mentira, e a casa de Israel com engano; mas Judá ainda domina com Deus, e com o Santo está fiel.
(SRV) (12:1) CERCOME Ephraim con mentira, y la casa de Israel con engaño: mas Judá aún domina con Dios, y es fiel con los santos.
(SSE) Me cercó Efraín con mentira, y la Casa de Israel con engaño; mas Judá aún domina con Dios, y es fiel con los santos.
(WEB) Ephraim surrounds me with falsehood, And the house of Israel with deceit; And Judah still us unruly with God, And is unfaithful to the Holy One.
(Webster) Ephraim encompasseth me with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
(YLT) Compassed Me with feigning hath Ephraim, And with deceit the house of Israel. And Judah again is ruling with God, And with the Holy Ones is faithful!
Why is there such a discrepancy between the Word English Bible (WEB) and Young's Literal Translation (YLT), the NASB and the NKJV? After looking at the different translations, I am convinced that this is a textual issue.
The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states, "Hos 11:12 - MAURER joins this verse with the twelfth chapter. But as this verse praises Judah, whereas Hos_12:2 censures him, it must belong rather to the eleventh chapter and a new prophecy begins at the twelfth chapter. To avoid this, MAURER translates this verse as a censure, "Judah wanders with God," that is, though having the true God, he wanders after false gods."
If I find anything more, I will post it..
Nolan |
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Is it wrong to swear or take an oath? |
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Matt 5:34
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Nolan, another follow-up to your answer about taking oaths. You may be too young be familiar with the expression, "A man's word is his bond." But it was very much in vogue when my father and mother were young, and I've heard them use it many times. In the "good old days" major business deals were consummated merely by verbal agreement and a hand shake. And they were carried out, too, just as agreed, because then a man's word was truly his bond....... In our time it has become commonplace to read of deception, deceit and lies in high places in business and government, even in spite of oaths of office or written legal contracts. --Hank |
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Why does He list these 7/ 12? |
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Matt 15:19
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Why does He list these 7?
Why does it differ from the list in Mark 7:21-22 which says "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness."
Don't answer this, just think about it ... which are you most guilty of? Are you innocent of any?
Steve |
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admit |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Experience and the Word of God
Dear Peaches,
I admit that I have questions.
“My point God can not be limited to just what we read in the bible.” Yes, but our only source of authoritative, true and reliable knowledge of God is from His Word alone. Is. 8:20 says, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.” What we THINK we have experienced of God must be checked with his Word. And if what we think we have learned about God from that experience conflicts with what his Word says about him, then that experience has not taught us the truth. It must be according to his law and his testimony or else it has no dawn (light).
“but is it possible that the life we living will be the next story to tell to the generations to come.” Ps. 103:2 says, “Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits...” Ps. 78:4 says, “We will not conceal them from their children, But tell to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, And His strength and His wondrous works that He has done.” Yes, Peaches, we should tell our children what the Lord has done for us. But our experience will not be the next record of the Word of God. God has told us all the things that he wants us to know and all that we need to know. 2 Timothy 3: 16,17 says, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
“If the people in the bible did not record what they where experiencing how would we now that God was real?” You’re right. We wouldn’t. But the Word of God is not just a human record of people’s experience of God. It is what God directed only special people to write by His authority alone. 2 Pet. 1:21 says, “for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” So, nothing in the Word of God is there because someone wanted to write down the wonderful things they experienced from God.
“We to must open the forum to discussions based on our experiences with the creator so that the generations to follow will understand from a spiritual perspective as to existence of the Creator.” We can do that, but not for the purpose of discovering some new revelation. We can do it for praise and thanksgiving and to put our experience under the light of God’s Word. You know that we still have sin in our lives, and sin is deceitful. This is also why our experience cannot be a basis or source of knowledge about God. This is why the source must be God’s inerrant, infallible Word.
‘You and I both are in search of the ultimate question of who God is. Where did God come from?” From His Word I already know God. John 17:3 says, "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” And God tells us in his Word the answer to you second question. Peaches would you like to know God? Jesus says, ”All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” (Matt. 11:27) Jesus can reveal him to you. Study his Word and ask Jesus to give you understanding of what God says about himself in His word. Jesus said, "... and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” John 6:37
Peace,
Lionstrong
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what are the events of the end times???? |
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Revelation
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The bible has much to say on the events of the end times. Matt 24:6 tells us that we will hear of wars and rumors of wars; and that nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, (many believe this was fulfilled in WWI) and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 2Tim 3:1 tells us that distressing times will come and gives us a profile of what people will be like.
Matt 24:45 tells us that many will come in Jesus name saying that they are the Christ and will deceive many. Luke 21: 25-26 tells us that there will be signs in the sun and moon and starts and the world will be perplexed by roaring seas and strange tides.
In chapter 12 in the book of Daniel, Daniel prophecies about the last days. 1Tim 4:1-2 tells us that in the last days some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons.
Some of the other events that are prophesied to occur in the end times are:
The return of the Jews to their homeland. (Isreal became a nation again in 1948).
The rise of a great military power in the Orient that can field an army of 22 million - Red China alone is said to have this many.
Revival of the dark occult practices of ancient Babylon.
Hope this helps. prayon
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so many different,which ones used mostly |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Many versions...one truth. Different versions of the bible are a positive thing. In the denomination I belong to twenty years ago the KJV was dominant. Today the NIV is dominant. My personal preference is KJV. However this year I have been reading thru the bible using NIV. And I have been blessed. Job 6:10 (NIV) Then I would still have this consolation-- MY JOY IN UNRELENTING PAIN-- that I had not denied the words of the Holy One. Psalm 94:19 (NIV) When anxiety was great...within me...your consolation brought joy...to my soul. Jeremiah 5:22 (NIV) Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD. "Should you not tremble in my presence? I made the sand a boundary for the sea, an everlasting barrier it cannot cross. The waves may roll, but they cannot prevail; they may roar, but they cannot cross it. (There is a limit to what satan can do) Different versions...different perspectives...one truth. Think of the gospels. Four versions of the life of Jesus written from different perspectives. Same life just different perspectives. Over the years the most popular versions may/will change. The Truth will not. With the ease of an online concordance I often look at different versions of a scripture/section of scriptures to get an idea of what is being presented. An example of that is a study I did on Colossians 2...focusing on verses 8 and 18. For this particular study I used the NKJV. The key word in these verses was CHEAT. Other words used in different versions were captive, lead astray,spoil, disqualify, defraud,condemn, and beguile. I think it is great that we have the ability to view scripture from different versions (perspectives). The Cheat Test Colossians 2:8 (NKJV) Beware lest anyone CHEAT you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. Colossians 2:18 (NKJV) Let no one CHEAT you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind. A cheater does not play by the rules... A cheater misrepresents truth... A cheater promises much, gives little... A cheater wants what you have... A cheater will ''become'' whatever is necessary to accomplish his goal... Last year someone gave you a brand new car. You loved the gift and the giver. A stranger asks about your car. You tell how wonderful the car is and about the one who gave it to you. The stranger begins to tell you about all the things wrong with you car. Bad gas mileage...expensive upkeep...insurance premiums... He offers a solution to your being stuck with your car...he will take it off your hands. You refuse the offer. The stranger then offers to trade. He shows you a picture of a brand new car. It is better than the one you have. The stranger even offers to pay all expenses for the car you get. You consider the offer. In Christ we have all the treasures, all the fullness, and are complete in Him (Colossians 2:4, 9-10 NKJV). We should be living rich, full, complete lives as christians. Satan comes along and starts pointing out the "flaws". Amazingly so many listen. Instead of rejoicing thru the difficulties and problems of life they focus on what is wrong. If we cannot be cheated out of our joy by this method then satan offers something better. We see the picture....the "perfect christian life"....and then we look at what we have. Instead of enjoying who we are in Christ we are constantly focusing on our imperfections. Either way we are being cheated out of the life GOD intends. Satan knows the truth and works to keep us away from it. A simple test....what do you see clearly? Where is your focus? Are you being cheated? FOCUS...For Our Clear Understanding...Scripture ...peace... |
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Why not even enter the village? |
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Mark 8:26
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Dear Steve,
I believe that there were two main reasons why Jesus told the man to not "enter the village" after he was healed. The first was for the man's sake, and the second was for Jesus' sake.
I think that the man who was healed had a young and tender faith (see my note on Mark 8:25). Therefore, I think that Jesus knew that it was not ready for the testing and ridicule that would certainly come if the man went to the city. The religious leaders would have deffinately given him a hard time just like they did in other places (John chapter 9). Therefore, Jesus advised him to go home instead where he could ponder what had happened to him in his heart.
The second reason was that Jesus often just didn't want people going around telling about many miraclous events. He told the disciples not to tell about the transfiguration (Mark 9:9). He told other people He healed (Mark 7:32-37) also not to tell about what had happened. I could see three reasons for this.
The first is that Jesus was modest. This is a true statement, but I don't think would be the main reason. A second is that Jesus knew human nature, and that if He told people not to tell then the news would actually spread faster. Jesus does know human nature, but that seems a little deceitful, which would not fit His character. The third reason (which I find the most likely) is that Jesus was trying to maintain a low profile, because His time had not yet come (John 2:4 and John 7). |
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Lost my salvation? (Hebrews 6:4-6) |
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Heb 6:4
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Amen Joe!! Tim, remember the parable of the sower? That is what applies to you. Where do you stand? I've pasted Jesus' explanation of these passages for your convenience:
Matt 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Matt 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Matt 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Matt 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Do you truly love the Lord Jesus Christ? If so, then as a soldier of Christ, you WILL BE wounded just like all of us. Those wounds are either self-inflicted or inflicted by the devil. I'm not speaking about physical wounds but spiritual ones that affect your conscience. But get back up and fight the good fight. Keep away from temptations, like the Apostle James said, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7. We all are proned to certain sins, we have to stay away from those sins that can master us, and of course all sins generally.
Don't ever forget what the Apostle Paul said, Romans 8:38-39 "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Notice he said "any other created thing", guess what, that even includes you!! You cannot even remove YOURSELF from God's hand if you are truly His. So praise God that He always keeps His promises, and continue in advancing His kingdom. Stop worrying about your problems and begin to serve the body of Christ. You will find real fulfillment there.
In Christ,
Onnig |
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