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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear EveryHome: Always good to communicate with you. I look forward to talking more -- any time, any subject. I will now do my best to comment on the Scriptures you asked me about.
. . . John 15:6 (NASB) "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." John 15:4-6 Abide in Me. "The word 'abide' means to remain or stay around. The 'remaining' is evidence that salvation has already taken place (1 John 2:19) and not vice versa. The fruit or evidence of salvation is continuance in service to Him and in His teaching (John 8:31; 1 John 2:24; Col 1:23). The abiding believer is the only legitimate believer. Abiding and believing actually are addressing the same issue of geniune salvation (Heb 3:6-19)."
. . . Romans 11:22 (NASB) "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." "11:22 Consider the goodness and severity. All of God's attributes work in harmony; there is no conflict between His goodness and love, and His justice and wrath. Those who accept His gracious offer of salvation experience His goodness (2:4); those who reject it experience His severity (2:5).
. . . Those who fell. The unbelieving Jews described in Rom 11:12-21. 'Fell' translates a Greek word meaning 'to fall so as to be completely ruined.' Those who reject God's offer of salvation bring upon themselves utter spiritual ruin.
. . . If you continue. Genuine saving faith always perseveres (compare John 8:31; 15:5,6; Col 1:22,23; Heb 3:12-14; 4:11; 1 John 2:19).
. . . Cut off. From the same Greek root word translated 'severity' earlier in the verse. God will deal swiftly and severely with those who reject Him."
New Revised Standard Version Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt."
. . . "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have (done all these things in vv. 4-5) and then have fallen away." "There is no possibility of these verses referring to losing salvation. Many Scripture passages make unmistakably clear that salvation is eternal (compare John 10:27-29; Rom 8:35,38,39; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:4,5). Those who want to make this verse mean that believers can lose salvation will have to admit that it would then also say that one could never get it back again."
. . . (All quoted commentary is from the MacArthur Study Bible, Word Publishing, 1997.) |
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what does this mean, is there no hope? |
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Not Specified
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In Heb:6:4-6 it states that it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirt, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Please tell me what this means? does this mean if we fall that we canot go back to God? I would appreciate it if someone could help me with these verses. Please help me understand what this means. Thank you Angala |
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what does this mean, is there no hope? |
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2 Pet 3:9
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In Heb:6:4-6 it states that it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirt, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Please tell me what this means? does this mean if we fall that we canot go back to God? I would appreciate it if someone could help me with these verses. Please help me understand what this means. Thank you Angala |
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what does this mean, is there no hope? |
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2 Pet 3:9
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Persons who become sincerely concerned about their spiritual condition and find in their hearts the desire to return to God in repentance have a sure evidence they have not committed unpardonable apostacy. The Scriptures clearly affirm that God is "not willing that any should perish"(2Pet. 3:9 and Is. 1:18-19; 55:6-7) anddeclare that
god will receive all who were once under saving grace if they repent and return to Him.Luke 15:11-24:Rom.11:20-23;Jas.5:19-20; Rev.3:14-20; note the example of Peter, Mat.16:16;26:74-75; John 21:15-22 |
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what does this mean, is there no hope? |
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Heb 6:4
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In Heb:6:4-6 it states that it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirt, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Please tell me what this means? does this mean if we fall that we canot go back to God? I would appreciate it if someone could help me with these verses. Please help me understand what this means. Thank you Angala |
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what does this mean, is there no hope? |
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Heb 6:4
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" . . . logically [Heb 6:4] implies that if salvation were to be lost, it would be impossible for that person to be born again, lose it, and then be born again again. This much is clear: whoever openly and consciously rejects Jesus Christ is unregenerate even if he seemed to have been saved ealier." Whether he had lost his salvation or never had it to begin with, "either way, the result is identical." (note at Heb. 6:4ff, NRSV Harper Study Bible, Zondervan, 1991)
. . . The warning in Heb 6:6-8 "is issued to those who have been instructed and even moved by the Holy Spirit but have never committed themselves to Christ. [In this passage] the experiences outlined may precede and even accompany salvation, but they do not always result in salvation. Scripture abundantly affirms the Christian's eternal security; therefore this passage must not be interpreted as teaching that believers in Christ can lose their salvation. See Jn3:15-16, 36; 10:27-30; Rom 8:35,37-39; Eph 1:12-14; 4:30; Phil 1:6; Heb 10:12-14; 1 Pet 1:3-5" (note at Heb 6:4, New Scofield Reference Bible, Oxford, 1967). |
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3 days and 3 nights and Sabbaths |
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Matt 12:40
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EdB, you have no personal profile, so I could not respond privately. Therefore, I apologize in advance for any arrogance in my writing. I respect your scholarship and value your comment, so I submit the following as my opinion.
"It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
"But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb... "
Lu 23:54-24:2
Luke, for whom "it seemed fitting... to write it out in consecutive order," specifies "the Sabbath" (singular) in both places. So do the other gospel accounts: Mt 28:1; Mk 15:42 and 16:1; Jo 19:31. (The "day of preparation" is a Jewish idiom for the day before the Sabbath; see Ex 16:22-26.)
EdB wrote:
"Lev. 23:5 defines the Passover. It also defines Sabbaths or other Holy Convocations. From reading this we can see that the Passover is called a Holy Convocation or day of rest. Also note the day after the Passover which is the Feast of Unleaven bread is also a Holy convocation or day of rest."
[(A implies C) AND (B implies C)] implies (A is B)? Not according to logic. In Lev 23:2-8, the Lord tells Moses to have a holy convocation on Passover and on the first and last days of the week-long feast of unleavened bread that follows Passover. These days are designated as days of rest: "You shall not do any laborious work."
But they are not called Sabbaths. Do you have a verse of scripture that calls any day (high, holy, or day of rest) a Sabbath _except_ the 24 hours from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday? Jews today do not call any other day a Sabbath, except the seventh day.
EdB wrote:
"For Jesus to be crucified on Friday and buried and have the women go to the grave on Sunday would mean that Jesus was crucified on a Holy Convocation Day or Jewish Day of rest."
The Romans thought nothing of crucifying criminals on Passover. On the same afternoon when the priests blew the trumpets to signal the slaying of the paschal lambs, Jesus said, "It is finished." And it was also permissible by law for Joseph of Arimathea and the women to bury Jesus' body on the Passover, though not on Shabat, and thus their haste.
EdB wrote:
"Could the Sabbath talked about in the scriptures really be the Feast of the Unleaven Bread a Holy Convocation?"
Again, I would be very interested in any scripture or rabbinical tradition that calls any day but the seventh day the Sabbath. And so would the rabbis. |
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curious questions concerning crucifying |
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Not Specified
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How do you think they got jesus off the cross?
I am referring to the nails (getting them out)
Did they lower the cross first or do this from ladders?
If anyone has any information on the mode of operation concerning the punishment of crucifying I would like to know please.
Did they carry their whole cross or just the crossmember?
How large were these crosses?
Were the nails placed in the hands or the wrists?
How would they put a nails into the foot area? (not an easy thing).
Were ropes used at all?
What was the usual length that people being crucified survived while on the cross?
Were crosses reused?
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curious questions concerning crucifying |
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Matt 27:22
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How do you think they got jesus off the cross?
I am referring to the nails (getting them out)
Did they lower the cross first or do this from ladders?
If anyone has any information on the mode of operation concerning the punishment of crucifying I would like to know please.
Did they carry their whole cross or just the crossmember?
How large were these crosses?
Were the nails placed in the hands or the wrists?
How would they put a nails into the foot area? (not an easy thing).
Were ropes used at all?
What was the usual length that people being crucified survived while on the cross?
Were crosses reused?
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curious questions concerning crucifying |
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Matt 27:22
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Crucifixion was the most painful and degradng form of capital punishment in the ancient world. So cruel and horrendous was it that the Roman government exempted their own citizens from this method of execution. A person crucified in Jesus' day was first of all scourged (beaten with a whip consisting of thongs or at least flogged until the bloodflowed. This was not just done out of cruelty but was designed to hasten death and lessen the terrible ordeal. After the beating, the victim was forced to bear the crossbeam to the execution site in order to signify that life was already over and to break the will to live. A tablet detailing the crime(s) was often placed around the criminal's neck and then fastened to the cross. At the site the prisoner was often tied (the normal method) or nailed to the crossbeam. The nail would be driven through the wrist rather than the palm, since the smaller bones of the hand could not support the weight of the body. The beam with the body was then lifted and tied to the already affixed upright pole. Pins or a small wooden block were placed halfway up to provide a seat for the body lest the nails tear open the wounds or the ropes force the arms from their sockets. Finally the feet were tied or nailed to the post. Death was caused by the loss of blood circulation and coronary failure. Especially if the victims were tied, it could take days of hideous pain as the extremities turned slowly gangrenous; so often the soldiers would break the victim's legs with a club, causing massive shock and quick death. Such executions were usually done in public places, and the body was left to rot for days, with carrion birds allowed to peck at and degrade the corpse further. The above description was excerpted from Holman Bible Dictionary. The Gospels and other accounts in the New Testament writings give us all the Biblical details we have of Jesus' crucifixion, although the Old Testament contains a number of prophetic passages concerning the Suffering Servant who "was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5). How could anyone be so hardened that he would not be moved by the unspeakable suffering that the Lord Jesus endured on the cross. And Pilate's question in Matthew 27:22, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" has echoed in the hearts and minds of men and women for centuries, and echoes still. "What shall I do with Jesus?" One's eternal destiny pivots on these six words. --Hank |
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Simon of Cyrene |
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Matt 27:32
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We are told that Simon of Cyrene was compelled to carry the cross for Jesus on the way to Golgatha. I believe that this must of made a strong impact on him because Romans 16:13 states that Paul mentions his sons, Rufus and Alexander, with warm affection. My question is what else do we know about him? Why was he in Jerusalem at that time? Was this his first exposure to Christ or had he heard his message before? Had he been in the crowd yelling "Crucify him"? |
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Simon of Cyrene |
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Matt 27:32
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Nothing in the Bible ... He was from Cyerene, in Africa.
He may of been a Jew, and had to be there because of the Passover. Yes, it could of never been exposed to Christ before ... and could of been yelling "Crucify Him", or may not been able to get into the city because of the crowd. He may of gone to Rome with his sons.
All three sons of Noah were part of this scene. The son Shem - Christ, Japheth - the soldiers and Ham - Simon. |
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Confidence? |
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Acts 4:13
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After being imprisoned, brought before the Sanhedrin and severely questioned, Peter and John were not intimidated. They were filled with confidence by the Holy Spirit and reflecting on their direct personal relationship with Jesus Christ, having confidence stemming from that relationship and by being empowered by the Holy Spirit. They preached Jesus and blamed the Sanhedrin for crucifying Him. The defendant had become the prosecutor! The authorities were amazed at the boldness of Peter and John, especially since they were 'unlearned and ignorant' (Acts 4:13). They were laymen, not religious experts, and they had no formal training. But it was clear that these apostles had 'been with Jesus,' who had spoken just as authoritatively, even though He had no official training (Matt. 7:28-29; John 7:15). It was with His authority that they spoke.The council was also silenced by the presence of the healed man (Acts 4:14). Apparently, he had been summoned as part of the 'evidence' against the apostles (vv. 9-10), but he proved to be an embarrassment to the accusers. They could not deny the miracle, and being unwilling to accept Peter's explanation, they were left with the question of what to do to these men (v. 16). All the council could do was forbid the apostles to continue their ministry (Acts 4:17-18). But this feeble effort was like a dam made of toothpicks before the mighty, onrushing power of the Holy Spirit! |
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Anything wrong with dating? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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As a single Bretheren you must have a constant prayer and fasting life as a lifestyle. Extremely Consistantly and faithfully in communion with the Father at all times. Please take heed if you are planning on living a single life or if you are single and looking for a help meet "patiently". Do not have mercy on the flesh because flesh surely do not have mercy on you.
If you have any more question please contact me at ministerhudson@hotmail.com
I truly, truly encourage you with what you are doing. Meditate on James 1:10-16, Galation 5, and Ephesians 2, and 1John the epistle. Walk in the Spirit and in total consecration and keep your cross with and crucify the flesh and be absolutly sure that the lusts, deeds, dispositions, affections, are dead because they should not be there at all. Satan only comes at your lowest point. |
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Bereans corrected the Apostle of Christ? |
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NT general
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Hi Joh, I agree entirely with you and am not in an argumentative mood.
Acts 17:3, "And according to Paul's cumstom he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the scriptures, explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the (Christ)" (Parenthesis mine for comparison.) As you wrote, Jesus was the Messiah, the Promised One.
If we like them went to the scriptures to see if this was so we would read for example, Mt. 27:37. "And above his head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE (KING) OF THE JEWS." (parenthesis mine for comparison but the capitals are in the NASB)
Mt. 6:9, "Pray in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (Your) kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven."
Mt 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the spirit of (God), then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
Mt.22:43, "Then how does David in the spirit call (Him) Lord,'..."
Mk 14:61, "Are you the (Christ), the Son of the Blessed One?"
Mk 15:39, "Truly this (Man) was the Son of God."
These Jews examined the scriptures. They were not judging Paul. But I don't see the harm in questioning what church leaders then and now say, do you? The people in the bible are not portrayed as being perfect and all the things that they do, good and bad, are there for everyone to see. But this is God's word and it is inspired.
Going back to the Acts 17 reference I see verse 7, which I think is key; "and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another King, Jesus." The king is not capitalized here but I think it should be. The K of the KING in the reference above I think should be capitalized. Verse 18, Paul seems to be "a proclaimer of strange deities,"--because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.
John 19:15, Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your (King)?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."
John 19:19, Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENCE, THE (KING) OF THE JEWS."
So, what I am saying in my own way, is that we have to determine for ourselves who this King is and we have to study the scriptures to know who is speaking truthfully and accurately. And we all aren't right all of the time. We shouldn't judge harshly leaders or church/forum members.
As far as speaking and teaching accurately, we could look at Apollos in Acts 18:25,26. But that is another matter. But he also demonstrated by the scriptures that Jesus was the (Christ).
Thanks for your post here. |
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EdB, Did He die on Thursday? |
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John 19:31
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Nolan then don’t take it seriously!
Yes I did attend Good Friday service and Maundy Thursday services all my life and still do. I also know many of the Pastors that minister those services felt Jesus most likely was crucified on Thursday but don’t care to make waves.
If you want to get serious and look at the evidence I can do that to.
Check Leviticus chapter 23 and where you see the word 'Holy Convocation' substitute word 'Sabbath'. Trust me on this it’s the same, read verse 3. Now read verse 4-8 and what do you see Passover day is a Holy Convocation or Sabbath. What is the day after? Another Sabbath.
For the Jews to crucify Jesus on Friday they would have been breaking the Sabbath they said they didn’t want to break in John 19:31.
Notice also it is called a High Sabbath. Ask any Jew which Sabbath is the High Sabbath he will response the 'Shabbat Gadol' or 'Shabbaton' which all are names for the Passover Sabbath. Ask him also the name of the day before Passover and he will tell you it is called 'The' Preparation day. The days before weekly Sabbaths are also preparations days but are they are not known as 'The' Preparation day. You will have to trust me on this or ask a Jew, I have interviewed many on the subject.
Let’s count Jewish days. They run from 6pm to 6pm. Trust me on this or read Genesis 1:5 and/or talk to a Jew.
You say Jesus died some time after 3Pm Friday
3pm – 6pm Friday - 1 partial day
6pm – 6am Saturday or the Sabbath night-1 night
6am – 6pm Saturday or the Sabbath day - 1 day
6pm – 6am Sunday night - 1 night
6am – resurrection - 1 partial day
Let’s add them up 2 partial days and 1 full day okay we will call that 3 days.
But I only see 2 nights any way I count it to the Jew there was only 2 nights. We are short 1 night.
Let’s look at Jesus the fulfillment of the spring feast. We know Jesus was considered the Passover Lamb. The Passover lamb was selected on Nissan the 10 th Exodus 12:3. For Jesus to fulfill the Christology, Jesus would had to be chosen that day which I believe he was by his triumphant entry and the people crying Hosanna 'save us' on what we call Palm Sunday. If he entered Jerusalem on Nissan the 10 th the Passover Lamb had to be killed at Twilight of the 14 th of Nissan or 4 days later. Jesus died at twilight on Nissan the 14 th which would be Thursday. Jesus’ resurrection fulfilled the feast of the wave offering and Jesus then fulfilled the feast of first fruits Lev 23:15-22 with Pentecost. You see he fulfilled all the spring or 'planting' feast and the only thing that remains are the fall or 'harvest' feast which I believe Jesus will fulfill with His return.
Now do one last thing talk to a Messianic Jew, I haven’t found one that will buy the story that Jesus was crucified on Friday. Reading the account in the New Testament and knowing Jewish law they naturally assume it was Thursday or 'the' Preparation day before the Passover Sabbath
I’m sure you will produce many books and commentaries that show me wrong and I assure you I can produce an equal number that agree with me. I have discussed and debated this subject for a few years.
If you don’t want to consider conjecture that is equally okay since it has no effect on either of our salvations.
Whatever you do or however you respond please bear in mine I have not attacked you in any way. I have not insulted your intelligence, belittled you or questioned your salvation. Please give me the same consideration. |
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Luke 23:34 When added to original MSS? |
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Luke 23:34
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Hi, I hope I can help you with this scripture/passage. I believe Christ was asking God to forgive them due to them not realizing what they were doing. In essence, Satan seemed to be entering into them to crucify the Lord. Maybe later on they would repent in Acts, when Peter was preaching. Also, it shows us what the love of God is... if someone does wrong to you, no matter what they do, you forgive them... the scripture is very important in this area where Christ was displaying the utmost humility - He was showing us what to do even until death.
Another example... Acts 7:60, when Stephen was stoned to death, he said lay not this sin to their charge. That's a pretty powerful scripture- How many times should I forgive my brother... Whatever I bind in earth will be bound in Heaven. |
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Revelation in the Gospels? |
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NT general
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I would agree with most of what you posted, but for shock value would never teach a sunday school class on it in most church--I only feel called to crucify my flesh figuratively not literally.
It is sad that many people take these instances (like how come in an O.T. battle scene exactly 20,000 or 5,000 men were killed not 20,001?) and say, "see, I told you the Bible was riddled with errors!" When most of the time the author just surveys the crowd and says, "Well, I don't feel like counting every dead person on the battle field, but it sure looks like 20k to me. And anyway, I don't care if they know exactly how many people died, I just want to record a military victory to show the blessing of being obedient to God."
The hermenuetical Spiral covers many of these issues you have brought up and I think we are probably on the same page.
Got to get back to work. |
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Tell me who unties them? |
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Matt 18:18
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My friend I have heard people binding demons for years, I would imagine there would have to be zillions of bindings by now. Yet we still have problems.
First of all I don't have problems with demons since I place and keep myself under the blood of Jesus and there is no demon that will cross the bloodline.
Secondly I don't talk to demons I talk to my Creator, the Great I AM, why would I want to talk to a defeated foe, when God tells me to praise and worship Him in all things?
Thirdly 90 percent of most people’s problems are flesh, and they find it easier to blame a demon on something they refuse the crucify the flesh over.
Fourthly Satan whether we like it or not is an angelic being (a bad one I’ll attest) and Jude 9 and 10 and 2 Peter 2:10-14 tell us not to talk about these beings in reviling accusations, but rather let the word of God be our shield and buckler.
Fifthly if you want to keep binding Satan then read 2 Peter 2:12 and see what your result will be.
James 4:7 tells us exactly how to handle Satan. It may not be as exciting as you wish it to be, but this is exactly how to do it.
Submit to God, few people totally submit oh they may go along with God until they get what they want but very few totally submit.
Resist Satan, I contend if your busy submitting to God you are resisting Satan and the word says Satan will flee. Do you see anywhere it saying tell Satan you bind him?
Let us not be presumptuous, self-willed; speaking evil of angelic beings, but rather let’s say the Lord rebuke you.
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CAN A CHRISTIAN FALL FROM GRACE? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Nolan,
I agree with you but I dislike the term "lose their salvation". You cannot "lose" something that you reject. I prefer the term "reject their salvation" or "fall from grace".
Here are some related scriptures.
Gal 5:1-4
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. NASU
Heb 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. NASU
Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. NASU
2 Peter 3:17-18
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
NASU
These verses and many others make it very difficult to be dogmatic against the possibility of falling from grace.
What we must do is reconcile these verses with the promise of God for salvation. The following are examples.
2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. NASU
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. NASU
The question lies with whether you believe man receives Christ by his free will. If so, then he may also reject Christ by his free will. Free will is not taken away after salvation.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
NASU
In Christ, Phillip
2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," NASU
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No speaking in tongues, no Holy Spirit? |
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Acts 2:4
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Steve you made a statement here that these were known tongues. In Acts2:4 we don't know what happened. I suspect everyone praised the Lord and by the Power of the Holy Spirit each man heard their utterances in his own tongue, rather than everyone speaking in a different language and no one being able to hear what was being said in the confusion.
In Cor. 12:10 we don’t know exactly what Paul was talking about but there is no reason to believe he was limiting his discussion to just tongues of men. The word for tongues he used here is “glossa” it is the same word he used in 1 Cor. 13:1 where he definitely was talking about tongues of Angels (or unknown tongues) and tongues of men.
Notice no where in the Paul’s discussion of Tongues does he use the word “ecstatic speech” which would be gibberish as many teach.
He always uses the word glossa in the original which means a known tongue but opens that up with tongues of men and of angels. Thus some tongues will be understandable by someone here on earth, in other cases the tongues will not be naturally be understood by anyone here on earth and therefore would need an interpreter.
There are many abuses of the gifts today. Many if not most churches use the gifts for entertainment of saints rather than ministry to unbelievers. Many believers use tongues and the other spiritual gifts not to convince unbelievers but to fortify their own faith. They need to see the manifestations to continue in their faith and this is dead wrong. Also many churches put undue importance on the spiritual gifts, they would rather have a message in tongues than see a person saved. And this is also dead wrong. I believe the gifts of the spirit are for today but they are not for in the church but rather in the market place where unbelievers can be lead to the Lord. People say there are unbelievers in the church and your right but they are unbelievers not because they do not know God but because they refuse to crucify the their flesh.
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Explain John 15:6 |
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John
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. . . John 15:6 (NASB) "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." John 15:4-6 Abide in Me. "The word 'abide' means to remain or stay around. The 'remaining' is evidence that salvation has already taken place (1 John 2:19) and not vice versa. The fruit or evidence of salvation is continuance in service to Him and in His teaching (John 8:31; 1 John 2:24; Col 1:23). The abiding believer is the only legitimate believer. Abiding and believing actually are addressing the same issue of geniune salvation (Heb 3:6-19)."
. . . Romans 11:22 (NASB) "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." "11:22 Consider the goodness and severity. All of God's attributes work in harmony; there is no conflict between His goodness and love, and His justice and wrath. Those who accept His gracious offer of salvation experience His goodness (2:4); those who reject it experience His severity (2:5).
. . . Those who fell. The unbelieving Jews described in Rom 11:12-21. 'Fell' translates a Greek word meaning 'to fall so as to be completely ruined.' Those who reject God's offer of salvation bring upon themselves utter spiritual ruin.
. . . If you continue. Genuine saving faith always perseveres (compare John 8:31; 15:5,6; Col 1:22,23; Heb 3:12-14; 4:11; 1 John 2:19).
. . . Cut off. From the same Greek root word translated 'severity' earlier in the verse. God will deal swiftly and severely with those who reject Him."
New Revised Standard Version Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt."
. . . "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have (done all these things in vv. 4-5) and then have fallen away." "There is no possibility of these verses referring to losing salvation. Many Scripture passages make unmistakably clear that salvation is eternal (compare John 10:27-29; Rom 8:35,38,39; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:4,5). Those who want to make this verse mean that believers can lose salvation will have to admit that it would then also say that one could never get it back again."
. . . (All quoted commentary is from the MacArthur Study Bible, Word Publishing, 1997.) |
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I liked most of what... |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Norrie, I would like to say that is okay, you don’t need to read, but I can’t. You need to read it for yourself. It takes discipline and that is something we have to learn as Christians to crucify the flesh and make it conform to what God wants.
The body wants to take the easy way, to listen or to have someone explain it to us. Those are good things but they are no substitute for reading yourself. I know people that can’t read a thing but they read their bible each and every day why they disciplined their bodies.
Norrie don’t start big, start at John or Genesis and make yourself read a verse or two with understanding, soon you will be reading more and getting more. Before you start reading pray and ask God to help you, if you make an honest effort God will open the scriptures to you like you never believed possible.
I’m praying for you
Ed
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Hebrews 6:4 |
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Heb 6:4
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Chapter 6 is addressing a mature person in the very first verse. In verse 4 it says its impossible to renew you to repentance if you should fall away not impossible to fall away.
When it speaks of tasting of the heavenly gift
that is salvation , and were partakers of the HOLY Ghost that is being baptisted in the spirit
and tasted of the powers of the world to come that is way beyond salvation that is maturity.
If you have been trusted with this power you can't turn back seeing you crucify Christ again and we know that is impossible. I am not attacking once saved always saved i am saying a mature person is the only person who can walk away from his salvation. He would know what he is giving up. |
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Hebrews 6:4 |
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Heb 6:4
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ibelieve: As I said in my previous post, I am not saying that I am "right" and you are "wrong." I sincerely mean that. I thank you for sharing with us your interpretation/understanding of Hebrews 6:1 and following. Since there are at least four major interpretations of this passage, it would be inappropriate for me to declare that I have "the one correct" intepretation. Nor do I make that assertion. As I also said, I have no quarrel, no problem with you. I'm glad to see you here, participating in the forum.
It is in a spirit of humility and respect for you that I ask you and the readers to consider the following regarding Hebrews 6:4-6.
"By far, the most serious interpretive challenge [in Hebrews] is found in 6:4-6. The phrase 'once enlightened' is often taken to refer to Christians, and the accompanying warning taken to indicate the danger of losing their salvation if 'they fall away' and 'crucify again for themselves the Son of God.' But there is no mention of their being saved and they are not described with any terms that apply only to believers (such as holy, born again, righteous, or saints). This problem arises from inaccurately identifying the spiritual condition of the ones being addressed. In this case, they were unbelievers who had been exposed to God's redemptive truth, and perhaps made a profession of faith, but had not exercised genuine saving faith. In 10:26 the reference once again is to apostate Christians, not to genuine believers who are often incorrectly thought to lose their salvation because of their sins" (p. 1896, MacArthur Study Bible, 1997, Word Publishing).
Thank you for your consideration.
Radioman |
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Are we forgiven? Does anyone know? |
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Matt 6:15
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Dear Bill,
I agree with most everything you have to say, and I think you may have misunderstood me. To answer your first question: does God still hold my sin against me? Of course not, and I never claimed that he did. "For Christ died for sins, ONCE FOR ALL (1 Peter 3:18)" No need to crucify him again. He has paid the price for all sins for all time. Second, I never said that YOU were denying your common ground as a sinner. I said that to believe that you need not forgive your brother is to deny such common ground. I merely interpreted the verse. My response implied no personal application whatsoever. However, I believe that the moment I refuse to forgive my brother, I have denied my common ground as a sinner, set myself outside and above Christ's law of love, etc.
In Ephesians 1:7, redemption is defined as the "redemption through blood." This gives the image of the Old-Testament definition of redemption: the price paid to set a slave free from bondage (Leviticus 25:47-54). Through his death, Christ paid the price to release us from the bondage of sin. Forgiveness in the Old Testament is defined as the shedding of blood for the remission of sins (Leviticus 17:11). Jesus' blood represents the PERFECT and FINAL sacrifice. Jesus' sacrifice brings pardon, deliverance, and freedom (Romans 3:25, 5:9, Ephesians 2:13, Colossians 1:20).
You forgot one thing in your list of questions. Would you have faith in God if, everytime you sinned, you asked for forgiveness? YES!!!!! Millions of people, including Christ (Matthew 6:12, Luke 11:4), make this an integral part of their prayer life. If, as you suggest, forgiveness comes with redemption and justification (as a "one-time" package), then why does Jesus teach us to pray about it? Notice the parallel between Luke 11:4 and Matthew 6:15. Luke 11:4 says "Forgive us our sins, FOR WE ALSO forgive everyone else who sins against us." It does not say, "Forgive our sins because we know you'd only do so once we forgive others." No, it says, "Forgive us our sins while we get on our horse and do our Christ-given duty of forgiving our brothers." The two events are INDEPENDENT, one does not cause the other. So in reference to your mutually exclusive statements, I agree with the second one. And I'd like to point out that I never once supported the first one.
This is why I further disagree with your statement that sin plays no role in our relationship with God. Sin separates us from God (1 John 1:6). Debbie touched on this. Again, the purpose of Christ's words in Matthew 6:15 are the same as the purpose of John's words in 1 John 2:9 - to show us the correct mindset of forgiveness that we should have with others.
I agree with you on everything else. I agree that at a believer's conversion, all sins are forgiven - past, present, and future. Forgiven in the sense that God will no longer hold them against us in judgment (Hebrews 10:17, Hebrews 9:25-28, 1 John 1:9). This is the HEART OF GOD'S FORGIVENESS - it frees us from the slavery we endure as unbelievers in our sinful nature. However, we as humans need to be constantly reminded that we need to EXERCISE EFFORT in continually forgiving our brothers.
The whole purpose of the first 4 paragraphs is to clear up any misunderstanding that might be interpreted from my first post. I truly appreciate your commentaries and insight on this verse, because as I have presented and defended my viewpoint, I have also learned from the information you have given.
Sandman
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Once Save; Always Saved? |
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John 6:37
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"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have recieved the Knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left. But only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."Heb. 10:26-27
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
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if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[2] to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
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Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
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But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
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Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.
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God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.
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We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.Heb. 6:4-12
And how do we make our hope sure?
Repentence is the point being left out in all these letters I am reading. Jesus came with grace and truth. John 1:17. The grace covers over our gazzion faults, but that doesn't take away our responsibility to repent, to obey, to live for God. That is the truth! That is why the Hebrew writer tells them to be diligent in the things they were doing!
And by the way, we get our eternal life when Jesus comes on the last day!
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
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People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
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If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
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Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.Heb. 11:13-16
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
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God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect Heb. 11:39-40
Study this chapter in Heb. and you will see that faith is what saves them and that same faith saves us. We both receive the promise on the last day. "Together with us."
So my encouragement to you is to live your life for God. Go after the things in your character that cause you to sin, and remember the amazing love our Father has for us so that when you do sin you can come before him with a heart of repentence and receive mercy!
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Eternal Security? |
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Bible general Archive 1
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Dear Tim,
My reply is more of a question than an answer. Sorry. I'm trying to figure it out, too. I'm only going to reference 1 Cor 15:1 here. Anyway, is the following understanding possible and/or reasonable? We know that when Paul wrote his letters to the churches, that they (the letters) were circulated from house to house (in fact, the churches did, too), congregation to congregation. They did not have the huge edific...uh, buildings (I can't spell worth a flip) that we have nowadays. The meeting places, back then as now, were made up of both believers and non-believers in Christ. What I am saying is that, although the letter is addressed to 'the church at Corinth, those sanctified, saints by calling', there were still unbelievers and undecided at their meetings, weren't there? How else would they hear the gospel message? Could Paul be addressing them, too? Or could Paul be addressing people that said they believed concerning the facts of the gospel but still kept living the same old way? (The church of God at Corinth SHOULD NOT be a blueprint for the modern church) In other words, they believed the facts of the gospel but they did not have the body of the New Testament writings to show them how Christ's death, burial, and resurrection should be 'lived out.'
That being said, see my modification to the verse in parentheses. Note: I AM NOT TRYING TO REWRITE IT, just understand it. Would it be proper to look at this verse in the light of:
Now, brothers (is this fellow believers or Jewish brothers?), I want to remind you (all, professing believers, unbelievers, and undecided) of the gospel I preached to you (all) which you (professing believers) received and on which you (believers) have taken your (believers) stand.
By this gospel you (anyone who hears) are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you (hearing the truth of the gospel - vs. 3 and 4 AND put faith in it, let it change your life). Otherwise, you (anyone who just hears) have believed (said you believed but never put faith in it) in vain.
Please don't crucify me here. I admit the text may not allow for this understanding at all. I'm just trying to understand it too. I feel, as you know, that John uses the same literary device (an editorial we) in 1 John. There he says in verse 1:3 'our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.' Then he turns around and says a couple of verses later 'if we say that we have fellowship with Him (in fact, he just did) and yet walk in darkness (unbelief about Christ), we lie and do not practice the truth.' We (you and I) know that John didn't lie and did practice the truth.
What do you think, Tim?
In Christ, Bill Mc |
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What is eternal life? What is saved? |
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John 6:37
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Hank,
Thank you for your response.
A couple of things I have to clear up. One is that I dont believe salvation is based on the good works you do. My point is that sin, though forgiven, still can harden the heart of the believer if there is not an active part on the part of the christian to repent of it. Can a christian be sexually immoral? 1 Cor. 5 makes that clear. Can a christian continue to be immoral and live for God? His house is divided, he will fall! Consider these passages in Heb. 6 and Heb. 10.
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
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if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
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but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
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Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
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How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
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For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
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It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
Jesus talks about the same issue in John 15.
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
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He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
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You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
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Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
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"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
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If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
I never said that Jesus takes back his salvation every time we sin. But I hope I made it clearer that if we don't repent and actively try to change the things in our lives that cause us to sin, we will harden our hearts towards God and turn away from him, and lose our salvation.
About Luke 15. Your explaination of this passage is entirerly speculation. The passage does't say that the "son will remain a son no matter what; he is forever a son; etc." But it does say in the passage below that the son "was DEAD and is ALIVE AGAIN, he was LOST and is FOUND." If the son never returned to the father (repentence) he would have remained "dead" and "lost". An explanation of this scripture outside of what it clearly says is not something I want to hang my coat on.
But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'
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"My son, the father said,
you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.
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But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."
Please respond to the scriptures I showed you and give me your point of view.
I look foward to hearing from you. This is good for my study!
-Kin
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