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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Who is the 'lady' (2 John 1:5) that John is writing to? |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Nolan,
This is either to
-a church (the lady is figurative) and the congregation (children)
-an unknown lady and her children
I'm drawing a blank on the congregation being called the children of the church ... I thought we were all the bride of Christ (Rev 21). So I lean toward the latter.
Now I'm going to get wierd:
-2 John starts, "The elder", presbuteros (Strong 4245) is an adjective
-Presbutis (Strong 4247) is the feminine noun form is found in Titus 2:3
-2 John ends, "The children of your chosen sister send their greetings" (v 13).
Since I do not think this verse is referring to a church either... is it possible an older woman was writing this to a younger, or had a significant role in it. Otherwise, why does the letter close like this.
-The letter is not signed, as with all of John's letters.
-I am aware of what the "experts" by comparing this letter with 1 John and the Gospel of John. But, when I disciple, I may look at one book and build of that.
Steve - gone wierd |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Steve, I appreciate your answer, however 'weird' it may get.. :)
It is not disputed that John himself is, in fact, the author, describing himself as "The Elder" in 2 John 1, and most of the "experts" seem to think that he wrote this in Ephesus, shortly after 1 John, but none of them agree on the date.. :)
MacArthur's Study Bible goes out 'on a limb' and says that the 'lady' is a woman who was well known to John. Zondervan's NIV Study Bible doesn't state which, and neither does Ryrie. Nelson's Study Bible leans towards saying that 'lady' means church.. Oxford's Annotated RSV states that it is a church! So the "experts" don't agree on this either..
My opinion? I honestly do not know, and I ask the question if any of the 2,200 members of this Forum has any decisive 'evidence' for this question..
Thank you,
Nolan |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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To Whom It May Concern:
Perhaps we ought not consult the "experts" anymore. The fact that some have spent as much as 30 hours a week for THIRTY YEARS studying the Bible IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES apparently means nothing.
A far better approach might be to read a Bible verse and whatever comes to mind first *must* be the right interpretation. In short, maybe those who devote months, years and decades studying the Bible are just wasting their time.
Instead of consulting the so-called "experts", perhaps we should ask:
1) The guy at the next desk at work;
2) The next guy on the assembly line;
3) A muslim preacher;
4) The neighborhood atheist;
5) The neighborhood agnostic;
6) The person who just got saved yesterday;
7) The subliterate;
8) The illiterate;
9) Jack T. Chick
10) Your local Lone Ranger self-appointed Internet Bible expert.
(Note: I know and have stated many, many times that: No man is infallible. Only the Bible is infallible (inerrant) and only in the original writings.)
--JVH0212
"In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, and in all things charity."
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Dear JVH0212,
I sincerely apologize. In no way did I mean to offend, demean, or put down in any way, shape, or form, the people who have made all these resources that I keep referring to possible. I did not mean to put them in a 'negative' light and I do apologize. I only meant to show the 'discrepancy' of agreement amongst the 'collective reasoning' of these resources that concern this particular passage of scripture.
I meant no harm by calling these distinguished gentlemen and women as 'experts', and I hope that no personal offence was taken in regards to you, my friend.
As for me, I will continue to keep referring to them as the Forum continues to allow a person such as myself to continue to log onto it.
Nolan |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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This is going to make JVH0212 go ballistic.
But let me add my two cents. Since Jesus put John in charge of His mother Mary's welfare and since church history has John taking care of Mary in Ephesis after his release from the Isle of Patmos. Could the 'Chosen' woman be Mary mother of Christ and he is warning her and her children of men that would profit from being able to say they were welcomed by Mary the mother of Jesus or one of Jesus brothers and sisters? |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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JVH0212
Chill brother!! ;-)
Love you in the Lord Ed |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Nolan:
When I wrote "To Whom It May Concern," I never for a second had you in mind. I know that you respect and quote recognized Bible scholars. Your apology is accepted, although it is entirely unnecessary.
And I agree with you that the experts don't always agree with each other. This in itself ought to prove there is no "conspiracy" among the scholars to defraud or deceive the reading public.
You indeed gave no personal offense or any other kind of offense. I was never offended at what you said, Nolan. :-)
I also will continue to keep quoting Bible scholars on the Forum. I never intended to stop doing so.
Hope this clears everything up. If not, write or chat me and I'll clarify, if need be.
Blessings upon you.
--JVH0212
"In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, and in all things charity."
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Interesting idea, EdB, and one that I have never even remotely considered before.. :)
Nolan |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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EdB: No, your posting will not make me go ballistic. :-) Why? Because I have too much genuine respect for you and I know that you are an honest-hearted Christian man. Agreeing with me has never been a requirement for friendship. :-)
Grace to you, my brother in the Lord!
--JVH0212
"In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, and in all things charity."
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Yes, my friend,
Yes, this is cleared up, my dear brother! I was hoping that I did not cause any offence towards you in the least bit, my brother, and that is what I was most concerned about. You know that I would go to great lengths to avoid even coming near to offending you, and you have reassured me that I haven't done so here. I love you dearly, and you know that! I only have peace and admiration when it concerns you, my friend!
Your encourager,
Nolan! |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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JVH0212, I knew you would forgive me, your my brother!!!!
Ed |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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EdB,
You really have no business mocking me here, Ed. My intentions here were made plain and clear. Don't provoke it any further.
Nolan |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Nolan
What are you talking about?
I didn't mock you!
Ed |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Ok, EdB, I apologize and will forget about it. This was a misunderstanding on my part and I apologize for assuming that you were 'mocking' my apology to John. |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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EdB - I like the idea. But, is it chosen one in verse 1 or 13? Steve
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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JVH0212 - 45,000 hours of study?
Martin Luther proved the "experts" of his day wrong. I think they can miss something today, they have beedn known to change their minds.
When I read my Bible, I do not read the "experts" until I have studied the passage myself. If I let them dictate what the Bible says, it is like the days of Martin Luther.
The "expert" do disagree about verses 1 and 5. I haven't found a pausiable response to verse 13. As I said, it could be the wife (or some female relation) of the writer wanted to say hi.
This is a minor issue.
Steve |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Steve
It is a the same word both places but that word has many meanings. One use could mean chosen and the other a favorite. I'm not trying to defend my theory, I just know when I read that passage Mary and Jesus' brothers and sisters jumped into my mind. I saw this as a warning against opportunist that would say we have credibility we just came from Mary or Jesus’ brother Jude. Much like authors do today by including other well known personalities pseudo reviews of their books on the cover of it.
It is not worth, nor am I willing, to go to the stake over this.
Just a thought
Ed |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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I give up. I'll just drop the subject. By the way, the next time you are sick or in trouble, stay away from a licensed physician or a lawyer who is a member of the bar. Just read a book on surgery, contract law, or whatever.
What need do we have of experts in any field? And don't forget to send your kids to a school where all the teachers are unlicensed college drop-outs. Let's be consistent.
Maybe an angel will appear to you in a vision and show you how to remove an appendix. Maybe he will lay hands on you and impart the training and experience you would need to argue a case in court. Maybe if your kids or grandkids stayed at home, alone in their rooms with nothing but their textbooks, they would figure out everything for themselves. Whatever. |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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John, when I really want to know something, I ask my thermometer. It has more degrees than any of the experts!..... But seriously, you and I (and others on the forum) have been on the same page on this, that it is singularly unwise not to avail ourselves of the excellent scholarship and insights made abundantly available to us by a number of sound Bible teachers. As I've said before about 74 times on the forum, the Bible is a complex and difficult body of writings, and none of us has the time to devote the aggregate number of hours that even a half dozen professional Bible scholars have devoted to the study of the manuscripts in their original languages, to the background of Bible times and peoples, etc. These people like John MacArthur and Charles Ryrie are our teachers and fine ones at that. While it isn't incumbent upon us to agree with their every point, it is incumbent that we make dead sure that our position is the right one and not hasten to our own conclusion on the matter. I feel that if I should adopt a position on a biblical matter that is contrary to the soundest and best time-honored orthodox teaching, I stand in dire need of re-examining my own view. It could be possible, but not in the least likely, that God would reveal to me a truth that He has kept hidden to the rest of mankind for countless ages. --Hank |
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Hank: Do you mean to tell me that the best way is not to read a verse and assume that the first interpretation of it that comes to mind must be THE RIGHT ONE? :-)
Thank you for a fine posting, one that is intelligent, reasonable and filled with common sense. To expand on the subject a bit, it seems to me that to belittle and ignore teachers such as you and I have named is to deny the truth of Scripture that tells us the Holy Spirit gives gifts to men and then Christ gives those gifted men to the church for its edification. One category of gifted men that Christ Himself gives to the church is teachers. Many of these teachers have written books. Again, to whom it may concern, this is NOT rocket science. A little common sense, please.
Also it is interesting to note: There is a consensus among prominent evangelical teachers and authors regarding the essentials of the faith. The fact of their consensus demonstrates that each teacher is not off on another planet of their own making. The fact that they don't agree on every last verse in the Bible ought to be sufficient to show that there is no "conspiracy" among them to defraud and deceive.
The argument that the Roman Catholic hierarchy of the 15th Century were the experts of the day and were wrong is the poorest argument I've ever heard to ignore all Christian teachers. One might as well say that since the Pharisees had strayed from the truth of the Bible (2,000 years ago), then to be on the safe side we ought never again trust any Bible teacher.
Or as you yourself (I think it was) once said, if we don't need men to interpet the Scriptures (which happens every time someone delivers a sermon), then why did Jesus commission the disciples to "go" into all the world? Wouldn't it have been equally effective and more efficient to just mail out copies of the Bible all over the world and let the unevangelized figure out the plan of salvation on their own?
Alas, you and I waste our time presenting these truths. If one has some kind of psychological hang-up or childhood trauma in regard to "experts", then they will never change their mind though the apostles or an angel from heaven tries to explain it to them. (Of course, the apostles and angels are just so many "experts," so what do they know? After all, they're all in cahoots with each other?)
--JVH0212
"In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, and in all things charity."
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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In this post I wish to clarify and expand upon my earlier comments. I want to go on record as being in agreement with our respected fellow Forum member, Steve Butler.
I agree with Steve Butler when he says the experts should not be our source as soon as we read a passage. One of my favorite Bible scholars and teachers on the radio always encourages people to equip themselves with the necessary methods and principles of rightly interpreting the Word of God for themselves. He urges people to read and study the Bible first to determine what it means on their own.
This teacher especially recommends about a dozen books that are basic Bible study tools. But he never encourages people to read the books first or as a substitute for reading the Word of God itself. I agree with him and with Steve. It is healthy and appropriate for us as believers to search the Scriptures for ourselves.
--JVH0212
"In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, and in all things charity."
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Who is the 'lady'? |
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2 John
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Thank you my friend for your support and prayer. |
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WHAT WAS JESUS ATTITUDE |
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2 John 1:3
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WHAT WAS JESUS ATTITUDE TOWARD THE LAW OF MOSES
MATTHEW 5:17-20 |
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WHAT WAS JESUS ATTITUDE |
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2 John 1:3
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Moses taught us God's law.
Jesus taught us how to apply God's truth, grace, mercy and peace, to God's law.
Brian |
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Can we select who gets our hospitality? |
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2 John 1:10
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Are we not suppose to practice hospitality?
How far to we carry this?
-What if the difference is teaching is minor, like denominational differences withing the envagelitical community?
Does it mean that one may not invite Mormons, or other groups who just knocked at the door?
Does it mean that it was wrong to say "hi" to that person?
What about showing the love of Christ?
-Are we faling to do so when we don't invite them in?
Steve |
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Can we select who gets our hospitality? |
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2 John 1:10
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Hospitality to whom and for what reason?
We should show the love of Christ to all people! Now some people you are happy to see, and some others, well, you just try to do the best you can! :)
But we should show love to all people, regardless of their creed. Should we invite Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons into our homes? If we do, then we SHOULD NOT give them a "platform" or chance where they can freely communicate their false teachings without the revelation of the truth in God's Word. If we can test and see what they say in relation to God's Word and show them where they are wrong (or correct), then I believe that we have acted in the best loving way that we can.
"10 take him into your house. A reference to the housing and feeding of traveling teachers. The instruction does not prohibit greeting or even inviting a person into one's home for conversation. John was warning against providing food and shelter, since this would be an investment in the "wicked work" of false teachers and would give public approval." (NIV Study Bible)
--Nolan |
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