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What is "First Fruits Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Regarding rapture, I heard some one mention "The First Fruits Rapture". I don't understand what this means. Can anyone help me with this? |
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What is "First Fruits Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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The phrase "first fruits rapture" does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Whenever someone mentions a phrase or a doctrine alleged to be in the Bible, ask that person to give you the book, chapter and verse where it is found. If you check 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and related passages, you will find no mention of a first fruits rapture. |
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Anyone else-First Fruits? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Understood. Thanks. Does anyone else have any knowledge of this phrase? |
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Anyone else-First Fruits? |
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1 Thessalonians
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"First Fruits Rapture"? No, I have never heard of this term before. Frist fruits mean a few different things in the Bible; (Here are a few examples: EX 23:16; RO 8:23; 1CO 15:23; JAS 1:18; REV 14:4)...........
As for "first fruits rapture", where you have heard that from, please ask the one (if you can) what was ment by that and post it here, I'll try my best to find out. |
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Anyone else-First Fruits? |
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1 Thessalonians
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the 7 feasts of Israel were fullfilled by Jesus up to the fourth feast, which includes the feast of first fruits. Jesus was the first one to be given his new body after His resurection. He is the first fruits unto God. The next feast that many scholars believe to be fullfilled is the feast of trumpets. It is believed that the fullfilling of this feast is the rapture. |
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Do all Christians agree on the rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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In I Thes. 4:17 the bible talks about being caught up,Does every christian believe that the rapture will take place? |
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Do all Christians agree on the rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear HeirofGod, No. Christians, like most people, agree on very little. When we can rid ourselves of the traditions of man and selfish emotion, the Holy Spirit will lead us to revelation of the one and only truth, which is in Christ Jesus. In any event, the only way to prepare for this future event is to adjust our present heart and circumstance. |
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Do all Christians agree on the rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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There is more than one interpretation of the doctrine of the rapture, as is the case with many Bible doctrines, especially when it comes to the doctrine of future things (prophecy).
. . . The main differences of opinion concern the time of the rapture. The primary theories are: 1) Pretribulation rapture; 2) Midtribulation rapture; 3) Posttribulation rapture; 3) Partial rapture, which is sort of a Marine Corps rapture where only the perfect, only the brave, only the few are worthy to be raptured before the wrath of God is poured out; 5) Postmillenial rapture; and 6) Amillenialist rapture. Take your pick.
(. . . There is also the new theory of No Rapture.)
. . . For detailed explanations of the above views of the rapture, see the Ryrie Study Bible, Moody Press, in Ryrie's article A SYNOPSIS OF BIBLE DOCTRINE, The Doctrine of Future Things. |
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Why do we disagree? |
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1 Thessalonians
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What I am mainly asking is how can we as a body disagree on something that important? I konw that it will happen, why it will and how it will, but nobody knows when. |
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Why do we disagree? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Truly I do not know the answer to your question: "...how can we...disagree on something that important?" You may as well ask, if we are all one body, then why are there so many different denominations? I suspect that if a person could answer one of these question, he'd be halfway to answering the other, as well. |
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Why do we disagree? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Thanks for trying. |
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Why do we disagree? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Friends, the uncomfortable answer would be sin. Though saved by grace, we are still influenced by sin. Looking at the history of the church, it appears that many divisions (denominations) were brought about by pride, arrogance, greed, and selfishness. If we were to try to believe that denominations were created by further revelation, then the most recent divisions would be the best, the closest to God. I don't think so. The word denomination means of a different name. A name different than Jesus the Christ. Any time we add a name to Christ, we divide Him. I don't claim to know Him better than another, I just know that He cannot be pleased with division. I fervently pray for unity, and I believe this forum (communication) will help. In Jesus. |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Is there any interest in discussing
the Pre Wrath Rapture position as promoted
by Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen
et al? |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Sure |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear EveryHome, Watch "Left Behind." I am not 'pre-tribulation' per se, but the concept was interesting. (Except the 'empty wombs' bit, implying that all babies are saved) Discuss! In Christ Jesus. |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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I am finding the whole "Left Behind" series interesting but far from convincing. After spending umpteen years as a "pretrib" (without really knowing why) I am discovering the Pre Wrath position is really challening me. I am not sure I can work my way through it without another person who is interested and open. I don't want a strong "pretriber" trying to talk me out of it. I want to look at it carefully. Actually, I have read Rosenthal's book twice and find most of what he says easy to agree with. Van Kampen (who has gone to be with the Lord) is a much stronger advocate when you read his books. How would you "get to the bottom" of this issue? |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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For starters... do you agree with this "definition" of Pre Wrath Rapture? I mean do you believe it is correct?
The position that the true church will be raptured when the great tribulation by Antichrist, inspired by Satan, is cut short by God's day-of-the-Lord wrath,(Matt. 24:22) which will occur between the sixth and seventh seals of Revelation, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. (cf. Rev. 7:9-17) The persecution associated with the great tribulation of Antichrist is viewed as the wrath of Satan, whereas the events that follow
beginning with the seventh seal, are considered the wrath of God.
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Why would you want to? Dear EveryHome, I am not making fun of you, or making light of your question. I simply think that examining one's motives for pursuing this is a good thing. I am not Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Post-trib, or even Rapture with a capital 'R,' so I won't be trying to convince you of any of these. I cannot see that any one of these 'theories' is carries the weight of Biblical certainty. I have studied extensively these since watching a movie that had elements of all of these, almost 20 years ago. My conclusion is that, though the topic is worthy of investigation, focusing on it is a diversion. In fact, to some it is a trap and a fixation. Why would you wan to spend a lot of time looking into something that has been expressly hidden from us? "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time is." Mark 13:33 I look at the context of this and get from it that we are not to go around looking for signs, investigating every earthquake and war. Nor are we to say, "Here is Jesus!" and everyone flocks to this place and that, seeking a 'special' blessing or understanding. No one fellow, group, or place will have a 'special' knowledge of the coming of Christ. Period. Instead, live your life for Christ, NOW! Obey His commandments where He has set you. Preach the Good News that He is Lord, and He will return, not about the return. As I look into the Bible, I can see no 'special' thing we can do to prepare for a rapture of any kind, except to live in Christ to the fullest of the faith-gift given us. All else is diversion and vanity. The phrase 'so heaven-bound that they are no earthly good' applies to many who know 'all' about the end times, but their Christian lives are in a shambles. The good books on the 'end-times' and 'rapture' will give you a overview of the scriptures, Old Testament and New Testament, but then tell you the same thing, "So...Live in Jesus!" That is the 'bottom line.'
Blessings in Jesus' name! |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear charis… there are major differences between "date setting" and attempting to understand the "timing" of Christ's return! Coming to a conclusion, through study of Scripture, about the accuracy of the Pre Wrath Rapture position is a very healthy and needed Biblical exercise. Remember, I am Arminian and believe very deeply that apostasy is possible. Let me elaborate on the impact of this. First, if the Pre Wrath Rapture is correct, the church will enter the seventieth week of Daniel to encounter the difficulties of that period and the Antichrist himself. If it does so, having been taught and convinced of an imminent pretribulation Rapture and the absence of any personal tribulation or persecution (because you are already raptured), the consequences will be calamitous. The church will enter that period unprepared, spiritually naked, vulnerable, and ripe for the Antichrist's deception. A questioning of the trustworthiness of the Word of God will naturally follow. It could be a spiritual catastrophe - a "Pearl Harbor" of incalculable proportions - a satanically planed sneak attack. I totally agree with your admonition to live a life of expectancy and to get with the program. Perhaps here is the ultimate error of pretrib rapturism. It holds out the false hope of imminent rapture, instead of the true hope of "expectant" rapture. What Scripture does teach is "expectancy" as you so often exhort charis. Any generation could be called upon to enter the seventieth week of Daniel and there, in the midst of adversity, to remain true (remember the Arminian blood). But with the certain hope that those who endure to the end will be delivered by rapture before the Day of the Lord wrath is poured out on the unregenerate world. They will not know the hour or the day, but they will know the general time period. I believe that Pre Wrath Rapture teaching becomes a supreme catalyst for holy living (2 Peter 3:11). Charis, if what the church has been taught… no persecution… no tribulation… straight to heaven on a cloud… turns out to be incorrect… then apostasy will bloom. It will become very easy to doubt the Word of God (as you were taught it) if you are a pretriber… going through the portion of the Tribulation enacted by Satan. So let me answer your gentle question about "Why would you want to?" by saying that I believe the church should be prepared for a portion of what we call the Tribulation or she will flounder under the attack of Satan and many saved souls will become apostate. The church will be unprepared to evangelize the lost world. This plus the previously mentioned belief that Pre Wrath Rapture teaching is a genuine catalyst to holy living is my response. Blessings! |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear EveryHome, Opening up my mail just prior to bedtime is terrible! I read your answer with great interest. Though I 'abstain' from any capital 'X' label, I appreciate your Arminian views. I also believe in the possibility of apostacy, but I don't believe it is very easy. Overall, I must say that I think you are giving Satan more power than he has been given. I think this has always been the case. As a master of deceit, his most powerful weapon is that of confusing and frightening God's people. I stand by my statement that study of God's end-time plan is fine, and 'seeing through' the false prophets and false 'christs' is necessary, but submitting to sensationalism is definitely not productive. It does seem to me that some of these 'false christs' will use the 'rapture' for their purposes. A good end-time teaching will give you the ability to prepare for the coming of Jesus where you are. When they teach you to 'come over here,' I am wary. "...I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Timothy 1:12 NASB I am certain that God would not allow Satan to put us through a tribulation that we could not stand.
So...live in Christ Jesus.
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear charis... you must live in a world that I do not live in. Christians, in my observation, fall victim to Satan even without the presence of the persecution and tribulation predicted by the Pre Wrath view. I would be interested in what you mean by "A good end-time teaching"... since that is what I am searching for and thinking that the Pre Wrath Rapture position may be just exactly that. Why do you so frequently refer to yourself as not being "capital" this or that. I appreciate your right to hold centralist views but I don't read the Bible that way. I certainly don't read Jesus that way. Issues of interpretation often focus on Scripture portions that have little or nothing to do with getting people exposed to the Word of God so they may be saved. Pet issues and arguments are a waste of time and bandwidth but I have a strong feeling that Pre Wrath is going to be incorrectly viewed in that category as your statement "submitting to sensationalism" might indicate. I am sorry you dropped the first part of your Scripture reference... I think the New Living Translation translates it well..."And that is why I am suffering here in prison. But I am not ashamed of it, for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.2 Tim 1:12 NLT. I think this verse really points out the frequently illustrated persecution associated with true Christianity and the need to have the Lord see us through more of that to come. Although I am still pondering and praying... thinking through what you have said and the way you have said it makes me more interested in determining the validity or lack thereof.. of the Pre Wrath system of end-time thinking.You must sleep funny hours if you were going to bed when you read my last posting as it was early in the morning. Have a great day... awake or asleep!I appreciate your open heart charis. I think I do.
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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No I do not agree. I believe that before the Anti-Christ is revealed we will be gone Rev. 4:1, I Thess. 4:17. The only way that the anti-christ can reveal himself is when the church is gone. He can't decieve the nations if we are here to expose him out right. I can't find the scriptures I had to support this ARGHHH! When I get them I will send them to you. |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Please do send me the references. Have you read the book Pre Wrath Rapture of the Chruch by Marvin Rosenthal? I think it would challenge many of your current views of Scripture. |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Thank you. I will. Can I find this book at any Bible book store? |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Good morning, EveryHome. You are very observant. I DO live in a world you do not live in. As to my sleeping habits, they are just fine ;-) Sorry, my friend, I couldn't help leading you on for a moment...I live in Japan. You see, I am very much aware of Satan's ability to 'sway' Christians from the path. I just don't agree that he can 'snatch' us away from God. If you would use Search for 'Snatch' or 'Salvation' you will find a great discussion on that. Thank you very much for your compliment. In faith, I cannot consider any word more favorable than 'centrist.' I frequently use the capital 'X' thing because I find that many Christians who favor any particular 'proper' adjective describing their faith are not 'something more than Christ,' but something less than Christ.' I am sorry, too, that I left off the first part of 2 Timothy 2:12. It, and the context, are among my favorites. I understand persecution and very much, and I believe that it is in persecution that the church really shines. Remember my situation, less than 1 percent 'professing' Christians, and probably one-tenth that Bible-believing and church-attending. There are no Christian television shows or radio stations (maybe a blessing!) and few of the reference materials you enjoy are translated. Yet, the church shines. I believe the church will shine on that day, or in those days, if you prefer, and Satan will be found to be not as strong as some think. Well, I must go to church. I am blessed to hear your views. Love in Christ Jesus. |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Matthew 24:24.
Dear EveryHome:
I quote from your message:
. . . "The church will enter that period unprepared, spiritually naked, vulnerable, and ripe for the Antichrist's deception. . . .
. . . if what the church has been taught… no persecution… no tribulation… straight to heaven on a cloud… turns out to be incorrect… then apostasy will bloom. It will become very easy to doubt the Word of God (as you were taught it) if you are a pretriber . . ."
. . . Your comments seem to contradict Matt 24:24, where it says:
. . . Matt 24:24 (KJV) "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
. . . The key phrase here is "if it were possible."
. . . (See also John 6:37; Rom 8:28) |
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Pre Wrath Rapture? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Yes but the best price I have found is at
http://www.signministries.org/
Please let me know what you think after reading the book. Blessings to you! |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear JVH0212...In the KJV Matthew 24:24 the words "if it" are italicized. I think a clearer translation of the verse is..."For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones. Matt 24:24 (NLT)... John 6:37 says Jesus will never reject us... not that apostasy is not possible. Likwise, Romans 8:28 is speaking... "of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." (NLT)... not to those who are about to become apostate. Please understand that I am speaking from an Arminian perspective, which in addition to personally believing is correct, I think it is best supported by Scripture. Therefore... would you be so kind as to comment on the following Scriptures from your perspective: "Anyone who parts from me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned." John 15:6 (NLT) "Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe to those who disobeyed, but kind to you as you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off." Romans 11:22 (NLT) "For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame.Heb 6:4-6 (NLT) Thanks for your response. Let's talk more. Blessings to you!
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Greetings charis. I have made many visits to Japan although not in recent years. As an Arminian believer... I too believe the concept of being "snatched away from God" is not taught in the Scripture. Yes I do know Arminian thinkers who would say differently but then that has never been an issue for our discussions. I am simply trying to work through a very well presented system of thinking in the Pre Wrath position. I really do disagree that a good Christian has nothing to worry about if that position is true since the challenges at that time will be far greater than most modern day believers are being taught and expecting. True... I meant "centralist" as a compliment when applied to modern thinking but being a centralist with Jesus is a bit of a stretch for me. I think He is looking for some very serious people to complete the task he left for us (and I sincerely assume you are one of those people). That is why I remarked that most of what I read on internet groups has to do with verses and/or concepts that really don't impact the lives of those that are perishing. I am really concerned about that with all there is to be done in world evangelism. I appreciate your comments about persecution and the positive impact that has on the church. You are correct. I believe that can even be enhanced however if we are expecting it and possibly even developing a strategy to take advantage of it with our current theology. Blessings to you charis... it is my turn to go to church. Good morning and good night. |
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What is the point? |
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1 Thessalonians
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Dear charis.... it's me again. I am really interested in what you meant in a previous response when you suggested I find "A good end-time teaching". I asked you then but I think you forgot to explain or give me suggestions for the source of such teaching (synthesized from Scripture I presume) and I would really like to know what it is that would impress you as "good end-time teaching". You have depth. I like depth unless it becomes "analysis paralysis"... which I certainly do not sense in your case. He loves you charis! |
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