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Results 1 - 17 of 17
Results from: Notes
On or After: Tue 11/18/14 ordered by Date
Results Type Verse Author Date ID#
1 Unatoned who die experience a sting/fire Note John 20:17 jeremiah1five Thu 11/27/14, 5:12pm 241518
  Yes, I have read Edwards sermon, but I should again. It IS worth the read. Thanks.
2 Unatoned who die experience a sting/fire Note John 20:17 jeremiah1five Thu 11/27/14, 5:11pm 241517
  I don't confuse "hell/hades" with the Lake of Fire, which is why I spell "hell" with the quotation marks because usually is understood that way by others as the eternal place. To me "hell" is only the grave, the place of "unseen" as defined by Strong's.
When a believer dies post-cross their soul/spirit go to be with God hid in Christ.
I prefer to see the story of Lazarus and the rich man as a true story, not a parable as Jesus uses proper names.
3 Christ's Descent... Note Eph 4:10 EdB Thu 11/27/14, 11:04am 241515
  Let us not clutter up the discussion with Purgatory or the false teaching that the cross was not sufficient. Let us stick to fact.

First and foremost don't confuss the name Hell with the final destination of the unrightous dead.

Hades/Hell is not the Lake of Fire, a place of punishment (since there has been no judgement yet). It is the holding place of the dead.

Luke 16:19-31 clearly describes this places as having two sections a hot dry place and Abraham's bosom or paradise. That can not be disputed.

Eph 4:8 clearly tells us Jesus decended and lead captive captivity.

To be in captivity you must be held, it is speaking of the captivity of death. Since Jesus overcome death He lead captive those held by death to Heaven.

These verse more fully explain this Ephesians 4:9-10 (NASB)
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

If Christ never descended into Hell how did He lead captive, captivity?

The Apostles Creed which many believe to have been originally constructed by the Apostles and know to have formally existed in written form as early as 390 AD clearly states Christ descended into Hell

No Jesus did not experience punishment, torture, or need to do any more in Hell to secure our salvation but Jesus did need to present Himself as the Messiah that the righteous dead had been waiting for, and free them from the deaths hold over them. Just as we are free of it today, so that upon death those of us that are in Christ go directly into His presence, in Heaven.
4 Christ's Descent... Note Eph 4:10 jeremiah1five Thu 11/27/14, 8:30am 241512
  Let's not forget the lesson in the story of the Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:30-31 (KJV)
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

They and we have the Scriptures. When Jesus died they had the Hebrew Scriptures and no one, according to Jesus, will be persuaded if one rose from the dead.
Today, this rings true...Jesus rose from the dead and no one is persuaded. This, incidentally, is why it requires God to make the first move upon an individual for as Jesus said in John 3:19-20

John 3:19-20 (KJV)
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Because of the BONDAGE of sin upon a person this prevents them from choosing the good as Christ said, "neither cometh to Him [the Light], because men love darkness RATHER THAN light, they NEITHER COME TO HIM."

We must take these words of Christ as written else we call Him a liar if we refuse to believe His Word.

5 Christ's Descent... Note Eph 4:10 DocTrinsograce Wed 11/26/14, 5:14pm 241511
  "Throughout the course of church history, many people have taught that Jesus' spirit descended into hell after His death on the cross. Basing this idea on Ephesians 4:8–10 and 1 Peter 3:18–20, most of those who have taught that Jesus' spirit went to hell after His death have said that He went there to proclaim judgment to sinners and/or rescue the saints of the Old Testament. Today, many in the heretical Word of Faith movement teach that the crucifixion was insufficient to atone for our sins and that Jesus also had to suffer three days of torment in hell.

"Faithfulness to all of Scripture, however, requires us to deny that Jesus' spirit went to hell after He died. First, Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in Paradise on the same day of their crucifixion (Luke 23:39– 43). Second, nothing in Ephesians 4:8–10 says Jesus descended into hell; Paul means only that Christ descended into the grave. Third, 1 Peter 3:18–20 likely refers to the Son of God preaching by the Holy Spirit through Noah to the people of Noah's day. Finally, Jesus finished His atoning work on the cross. The New Testament speaks of propitiation, the turning away of the Lord's wrath, only in relation to Jesus shedding His blood on the cross (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 9:1–10:18; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; 5:6–11). Moreover, our Savior's last words on the cross were 'It is finished' (John 19:30). He saw His work as completed when He died.

"Jesus' spirit never went to hell, but on the cross He suffered the full wrath of God that is poured out in hell. True, the scourgings of the guards, the nails in Christ's hands, and the other physical pains Jesus suffered manifested God's wrath. Nevertheless, the most intense suffering Christ experienced was spiritual in nature, the hopelessness of losing the gaze of His Father's blessing and the torment of experiencing God's wrath for the sins of His people (Mark 15:34). John Calvin comments, 'After explaining what Christ endured in the sight of man, the Creed appropriately adds the invisible and incomprehensible judgment which He endured before God, to teach us that not only was the body of Christ given up as the price of redemption, but that there was a greater and more excellent price -- that He bore in His soul the tortures of a condemned and ruined man' (Institutes 2.16.10).

"Sin against an infinite being demands an infinite punishment in hell. In a few hours, Jesus suffered and exhausted the infinite punishment that impenitent people cannot exhaust even after an eternity in hell. He could do this because, in His deity as the Son of God, He is an infinite being. This is a great mystery, but as the Heidelberg Catechism states, it does assure us that we are fully delivered from the anguish and torment of hell in Christ (Q and A 44)." --R. C. Sproul
6 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 EdB Wed 11/26/14, 3:56pm 241510
  When did these acts take place
Hebrews 9:12 (NASB)
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Ephesians 4:8 (NASB)

1 Peter 3:19 (NASB)
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

1 Peter 4:6 (NASB)
6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

7 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 jeremiah1five Wed 11/26/14, 12:24pm 241509
  This response goes to great lengths to omit the original passage of Scripture that says implicitly that Noah was the preacher of righteousness and that he preached while he was building the ark. Nowhere does it say in Scripture Jesus went anywhere except his body into the tomb and His soul-spirit to be with the Father, thereby "paving" the way as Firstfruits the same thing to happen to believers when they die, that is, body in the tomb/grave and the soul-spirit to be with God: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
This wasn't the case while the curtain was still up and in place in the Holy of Holies in the Temple according to the instruction and command of the Lord for the Tabernacle. Jesus is FIRSTfruits.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 3:20 (GW)
20 They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people—eight in all—were saved by water.

1 Peter 3:20 (YLT)
20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah--an ark being preparing--in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

1 Peter 3:20 (BBE)
20 Who, in the days of Noah, went against God's orders; but God in his mercy kept back the punishment, while Noah got ready the ark, in which a small number, that is to say eight persons, got salvation through water:
8 Grace began with the fall of Adam... Note John 14:6 DocTrinsograce Tue 11/25/14, 8:04pm 241508
  "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6b)

"'No man' means none, either Jew or Greek. In other words, everyone who reaches heaven will arrive there solely because of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice-that is, by His grace. Thus when Dispensationalists teach that Old Testament Jews achieved salvation in any way through the law, or that they were denied the gospel, whether they realize it or not, they are teaching a subtly anti-Jewish false doctrine. The truth is that God loved Old Testament Jews just as much as He loves New Testament Christians, and both groups have always been offered one hope through one Savior. And this one Savior still loves both groups today." --Steve Wohlberg
9 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 EdB Tue 11/25/14, 9:48am 241506
  I think the problem here is timing and trying to constrain the Godhead to man's linear time.

Hebrews tells us Jesus presented His blood on the altar of Heaven.
Eph tells us Jesus lead the captives of death to heaven.
Elsewhere we are told Jesus preached the Good News in Hades/hell.
Scripture tells us where 2 or more meet in His name He will be there also.

Jesus is obviously not constrained by human physical limitations.

So yes Jesus could have gone directly into God's presence, into the altar to place His blood upon it, to Hades/Hell to preach and lead the rigtheous dead held captive by death to heaven and did it all in a time frame we as humans can not imagine.

All we need to know is upon Jesus' death and resurrection many things transpired and were accomplish on our behalf.
10 NAS Emendation of Leviticus 17:11? Note Lev 17:11 granpa Mon 11/24/14, 9:58am 241501
  And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eats any manner of blood;
I will even set my face against that soul that eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

I have given to you the soma of wine of the soul [which] is upon the altar-of-atonement of your souls: for the wine of the soul (Holy Spirit) atones.

Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourns among you eat blood.

the original language had tones so the word juice could mean either blood or juice depending on which tone was used.
11 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 jeremiah1five Mon 11/24/14, 9:52am 241500
  I appreciate your comment.
No, it doesn't and I will provide the Scripture as to why it doesn't:

1 Peter 3:19 (KJV)
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The next passage gives us the time-frame in which to interpret what Peter is saying:

1 Peter 3:20 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness (or Righteousness), meaning He was a preacher of Christ (Messiah - Gen. 3:15), and Christ (or God's Righteousness.) While Noah was building the Ark he was also witnessing what was to come and declaring God to an unbelieving people. But ONLY Noah found grace in the eyes of God.
Peter continues his thought in bringing up Noah and the events of his day:

1 Peter 3:21 (KJV)
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"The like figure" means Peter is making a comparison between Noah's preaching to a people in prison (in sin) and declares that it is not the washing of filth from the body that saves us (water baptism), but one of a good conscience (where salvation/redemption occurs - Spirit-baptism) as the only Person that can deal with a persons conscience is the Holy Spirit now in the world.
12 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 00123 Mon 11/24/14, 7:40am 241497
  Does 1 Peter 3:19 contradict your view? If not, why not?
13 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 jeremiah1five Mon 11/24/14, 7:30am 241494
  If Jesus is [our] FirstFruit, and Paul's statement "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," and NO MAN had ever been "present with the Lord" due to the curtain separating the Holy of Holies from unatoned man, it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus did indeed go to be with Father upon His death. Jesus' body was placed in the tomb, His human spirit and soul went to the Father upon His death.
14 Jesus went to God immediately? Note John 20:17 00123 Fri 11/21/14, 6:33pm 241485
  Hi, Doc, to be honest with you, EdB's comment makes sense, but not yours. Paradise Jesus mentioned is not the same as the Catholic or Jewish Purgatory. Two additional questions following your response, then: (1) If Jesus ascended to God Father's hands in the Heaven upon death on the cross, was the place Paradise? (2) If Jesus went up to God Father, did He (probably, His soul) come down to join His body to be resurrected ? If so, why did He say "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17)? Clarify please.
15 Isn't Paradise the Heaven? Note John 20:17 EdB Fri 11/21/14, 9:01am 241481
No one mentioned Purgatory except you.
Do you think Jesus made up the view of Hades/Hell spoken of in Luke 16:19-31? What do you think Eph 4:8 is speaking of?

The links you supply did not refute the picture Jesus gave us in Luke 16:19-31.

Which raises the question if the view of Hades/Hell as held by some Jews was incorrect why would Jesus reinforce that belief by describing the exact same situation and place as you say they incorrectly believed in?
16 Did Jesus Spend Saturday in Hell? Note 1 Pet 4:6 DocTrinsograce Thu 11/20/14, 6:56pm 241478
  "I would say, therefore, that there is no textual basis in the New Testament for claiming that between Good Friday and Easter Christ was preaching to souls imprisoned in hell or Hades. There is textual basis for saying that he would be with the repentant thief in Paradise 'today' (Luke 23:43), and one does not get the impression that he means a defective place from which the thief must then be delivered by more preaching." --John Piper (2012)
17 Isn't Paradise the Heaven? Note John 20:17 00123 Thu 11/20/14, 10:14am 241476
  An excellent answer to my question! Thanks. God bless!

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