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|1||In Matt 25: 6 is it about us being ready||Matt 25:12||JCrichton||157402|
I understand your reasoning, but it is Christ Himself who calls us to unity both in Worship and Belief (due to constraints I've included only salient verses.):
9I pray for them... so that they may be one as we are one... that you protect them from the evil one... that they too may be truly sanctified.
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you... 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:9-11, 14-23)
Though Salvation is experienced individually, the call is for unity in Christ! Paul understood this as he spoke about the unity in Christ, the Body, and the need to edify the Church, also the Body:
5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to hisfaith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. (Romans 12:5-8)
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink...
18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body...
26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (1 Corinthians 12:12-27)
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all...
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work...
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. (Ephesians 4:2-32)
15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
True, we must answer to the Lord for our individual commitment, obedience or rejection of Him... but the call is for unity in the Body!
After all that Jesus taught the disciples and after His revelations of the immediate events... here's what he told Peter:
32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." (Luke 22:32)
The parable of the 10 virgins demonstrate one theme that Jesus continually warned about:
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. (Matthew 24:42)
|2||Was Ponchas Pilate considered a Christia||Luke 13:1||JCrichton||156846|
|Hi, Tim Moran!
Thank you for the encouraging words!
|3||What does the Bible say about marijuana?||1 Cor 10:31||JCrichton||156765|
Excellent testimony of a life turn to the Life!
|4||Where does Jesus return to?||Matt 24:27||JCrichton||155380|
I understand your concern for specificity... there's nothing than having a clear dotted line about where all should be... but I believe you are missing the point of the Second Coming... Jesus as the Lamb of God came to the people of Israel and it was very difinite because He came to fulfill the Promise of the Anointed One... still as He clarifies to the Samaritan woman, the Kingdom of God is at hand and those who worship Yahweh will worship in Spirit and Truth... the temples on the mountains and other places, gone! The Temple in Jerusalem, gone!
On His Second Coming, Jesus is no longer obliged to come to those who are descendants of Abraham by blood... He is coming to all whom He has bought by the shedding of His Blood...
When He comes all will see Him even those who pierced Him and all will know of His Coming! (Revelation 1:7)
To limit Jesus Second Coming to a specified people or place can only limit His Omnipotence and Omnipresence!
It would also make Mount of Olives the most densely populated geographical location in the world since, according to Paul (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), all who are in Christ will meet Him... that could also suggest a massive exile from all nations in the world whenever scholars decide that the Second Coming is eminent (which brings us to the fact that since no one knows the exact hour and day when the Second Coming will take place the exiles will be chaotic as people will, undoubtedly, be traveling back and forth to the "spot" of His arrival!
|5||What does this verse mean along with v-6||Ps 126:5||JCrichton||155242|
True that much is written in the Old Testament that is dealing directly with the Old Covenant... but much of what is written transcends into the Second Coming... the final victory for Israel is not the earthly Mount Zion but the Spiritual Zion the one that comes at the fullness of times...
There's a wonderful duality in Scripture that not only applies to a moment in time when Israel was composed of only the twelve tribes... but it encorporates the Incarnation of the Word, the inclusion of the Gentiles and the restoration of Israel.
|6||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152318|
You miss my point yet again! Where in Scripture does it say that due to the deligent work of such and such person people were saved!
Do you recall Paul's assertions... something to the tune of "if I do what I am ordered to do there's no reward in it...?"
And do you recall Jesus' words to the disciples... for one sows and another one reaps?
It is God who transverses our heart, mind, and spirit... missionaries are commanded to go and preach and baptize... not to save (playing God) a human being!
Again, the hypothesis asked if God could save beyond the boundaries of the Holy Scripture... God says He is the one who does what He wills with both the flesh and the spirit! His choice is that all should live... sadly, we chose not to do so... at our own demise!
|7||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152317|
I apply other Scriptural passages... such as Hebrews 8:10:
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
It is God not missionaries or the Bible that will make Himself known to man or was God out of luck prior to the compilation of the Sacred Writings into one voluminous book?
No, there's no limitations to God's Authority and Power!
|8||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152316|
Thank you for your reply!
|9||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152315|
Again, you miss the point completely!
If you follow Scripture in such a fanatic way that you only see what you prefer to see... how can you see what God wants you to see?
I said that God can exist (perform, do, say, exalt, castigate, exonerate...) beyond what has been revealed in the Holy Scripture!
I stated that God can and does function according to His Will which is not fully revealed in the Holy Scripture!
A simple example:
Everyone is awaiting Salvation in its fullest when we (those who believe and are found ready--just ask Jesus don't ask me how He knows) will meet Jesus and we will come to know God as He is... there's amply Biblical writing on the when and how... yet, God chose to take Enoch to Himself (not the prescribed format), and Elijah, and Moses... each of these servants of God had a different manner applied to them as they were taken up to God... and guess what... they all pre-dated Christ's resurrection!
Does that mean that all people of all times will go through individual resurrections that will be custom made? No! It just means that God operates beyond boundaries... it means that there's no limit to His Authority and Power!
|10||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152314|
The hypothesis was can man be saved by God outside of the knowledge of Christ (someone preaching; receiving a Bible and studying the Bible; television and radio evangelism...); my reply was that God can save even the most unfortunate individual who has never been exposed to any missionary functions...
It is the Holy Spirit who scrutinizes our being not a priest/pastor/preacher... it is God Himself that searches us; the Bible as well as the ministers are aides to God not limitations to His Power and Authority...
My personal belief is that Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life; that He is the only Way to the Father; that outside of Jesus there's no Salvation!
"So you're saying that there's a number of people who God has predestined to be Saved by Christ and then there's a number that, even if they were born of believers, would perish no matter what they did?
And if this is your theology, do you then cast off the Old Testament with all of God's revelations?"
When we read the Holy Scripture and we formulate a theology, we cannot remove a portion of Scripture because it is old or antiquated or deemed not applicable... God is God: He is Eternal: in Him there's no change!
So when God speaks through His prophets and He states that He does not want anyone to die (the second death: spiritual death: eternal damnation...) He means it! He is not going to set up a system where arbitrarily some will be saved and others discarded (Ezekiel 18--read the whole chapter, but pay close attention to the very last three, 18:30-31). It is not God's desire that any shall perish! It is man's choice not to accept Salvation (John 1:1-14; 3:14-21)
If we say that God chooses those who are to be saved and those who are to be damned, we are making ourselves judges over the Word and we are setting an expiration time on God's Word!
Today as then God cares not for our damnation but for our Salvation!
The choice, as with Adam, has always been ours: we can choose Life (Jesus) or death (eternal damnation)... but to suggest that if I choose death, it is God's predestination for me... that is an excellent excuse to disobey God, choose death, and then claim that it was my fate...
Few people in our history (Salvation History) have been decreed to do what God has commanded... the average human is free to choose life or death!
|11||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152311|
So you are saying that Hebrews 8:10 was simply an exercise in futility?
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God is limited by Scricpture or anything else... the hypothetical was: if a person is so remotely removed from all of humanity where he/she does not get to know Christ through the Gospels, would that person be condemned?
My position is that God knows no limitations... that what we are made aware by others (preaching; Bible; television, radio, etc.) is not the completeness of God, but that which was revealed... it is the Holy Spirit who brings the fullness of God; even then, He reveals to those whom He desires according to what He determines from their heart and spirit...
The whole Bible is not a list of limitations or a form of margin for God... God chose to reveal some things to us through the Holy Scripture--this in no manner limits what God can or will do or not do!
|12||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152257|
"Quite frankly, that is a very heretical statement! What you are saying is that God can tell us one thing and then do another."
Not so... I am saying that God did not reveal all that He is and all of His Ways... the Holy Scripture is not a measuring device nor a contractual obligation which binds God, as the old whiches and warlocks themes, to do as prescribed by our understanding.
When we seek to apply something to God because that is what we understand, we are not acting of pure enlightenment... we are acting of pure finite understanding... this happened frequently with Israel... God's own people loved to quote Scripture and to apply them as they understood it... we have a tremendous example in Ezekiel 18 and in the woman caught in "pure adultery" that was brought to Jesus... another perfect example is the passage that is still quoted by many in today's society ("an eye for an eye"); just because something is written down it does not mean that God is limited to the expressed text according to our definitions!
God is not intent on fulfilling our wishes... He is intent in rescuing us from death, in Jesus Christ!
"You need to look closely at the orthodox views of Scripture, so that you can know more clearly what you are rejecting."
I will never reject Scripture... man's interpretations of Scripture is another matter... where some see a God bent on saving an exclusive predestined few while condemning a whole mess of other people... I see man's rejection of God and his rebellious whims leading him away from Christ and into Hell--God is not be the cause of man damnation; man's rebellious disobedience is!
"If God is the capricious being you describe, then we are all in deep trouble. We can count on nothing. Indeed, we can know nothing."
Again, your terminologies!
Seeking to have a prearranged contract where God is fully obligated to save some people while these same people do not even have to acknowledge God's Authority... now, that is capricious!
Just as we cannot empty an ocean into a bathtub, neither can we empty God into the confines of the Holy Bible! That is my statement, worded differently here!
|13||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152254|
Is this sarcasm or one of those crystal clear anecdotes?... either way I don't get it!
|14||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152253|
This is where I gathered such information:
"All that God intends to save....will be saved! Every name that was written in the book of life before the foundations of the world will see our Lord for eternity."
...it may not translate the same way in your mind... but in my query I am asking for clarification: is there a set number of people predestined to be saved and, arbitrarily, is there a set number of people who will be discarded?
Now, I may have misunderstood the intent of the above cited passage, but that does not mean that I am stating that "we "know" he meant."
If you say that there are "x" quantity of odd-numbered buses and I repeat your statement saying that you said that there are "x" quatity of even-numbered buses I would be crediting you with my own though and not yours... conversely, if I ask you, are there then "x" quantity of even-numbered buses?... I am using your base information to further the argument--I am neither attributing to you my belief nor am I dismantling your position!
"All that God intends to save....will be saved!"
That statement, to me, resounds to the notion that God deliverately will cause people to be damned in Hell... since that is my understanding from that statement, I though I would ask for clarification...
If you are protesting because I worded my query in a fashion that is not familiar, then please offer an alternative mode of rendering my query.
|15||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152207|
"You wrote, "If I get you correctly... no one unless the Gospel is preached to them can get to know God?" Yes, that is correct. No one can know the Father except through the Son."
So the Gospel and the Son are analogous... that is Jesus does not exist outside of the Gospel?
"How that can possibly limit Him is quite honestly beyond my ability to understand"
That was precisely my point! The Holy Scripture is not a script which God has to adhere to... the Holy Scripture is there for our instruction and edification!
To claim God will save only certain number of people and these only through a prescribe format--that is limiting God!
"Note that you chose the word "able." Where has anyone said that "God is not able?""
When you prescribe that only through the Gospel (which implies someone preaching to that man) could we get to know God and abide in God... this all implies that God is dependent upon man to bring man to Him; instead of the other way around... Jesus did not say: those who are brought to the Father will the Father then bring to me and I will not reject them... Jesus said: those who the Father send to Me, I will not reject!
He was speaking even before the Gospel had been written... ergo, God has the Power and Authority to bring to Salvation (Jesus--resurrection and life) all whom He pleases!
"Angel! Think BIGGER! There is nothing that He cannot do!"
Again, my point, exactly!
I do not think that there's limitations to God... but Salvation is not dependent upon missionaries!
If you follow the proposed escenario, you will note that there was no middle-man interjected... God is able to touch human existence in the middle of nowhere as well as in the middle of a crowded train without the assistance of a single person!
It is the Holy Spirit that searches the hearts and the most intimate places of man... not another man; and it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins and of Salvation!
God's Holy Spirit operates beyond the confines of the Bible... directly in the pure existence of creation!
"(Go ahead, try to find a single verse in Scripture where it says the Holy Spirit saves.)"
You started out so good: God is God... but then reverted to "show me"
Jesus is resurrected by God, through whom?
And through whom are we to be resurrected?
There isn't one single Scriptural passage that denies that the Holy Spirit resurrected Jesus and that our hope is that He who resurrected Jesus will in turn resurrect us in like manner! (Romans 8:11; Romans 6:5)
So please do not confine yourself to the single written value of text... go beyond that (back to God is God--1 Corinthians 12:3) and view my words accordingly...
"if you are more interested in protecting or promulgating your position"
What is the position I am seeking to protect? That Christ died so that all may be saved? Did not say that! That everything is God? Did not say that either! That salvation comes to a few selected by some? Did not say that! That the Holy Spirit is the means by which God Saves? Scripture says that! That Jesus is not the Savior? Never said that! That God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit can be divided into seperate and distinct beings? Never! That a hypothetical situation where a person is not exposed to missionaries or the Bible and that that person goes straight to Hell? Well, no! God is Omnipotent and can go beyond humans and technology directly to an individual and convict Him of the Truth!
You say it is not Biblical?... then you've never heard of Saul! (No, not the pseudo kind of Israel!)
Further clarification: "God is love and only love..." who keeps saying that? I certainly have never claimed so!
God is Omnipotent, capable of great Love, great Mercy, and great Judgment!
"(e.g., the exclusivity of Christ, roles of the Members of the Trinity, universalism, etc"
These are simply labels which makes it easier for the human mind to cope with God's unsearcheable being!
Though each member of the Holy Trinity is salient at specific moments in Insrael's history... they are intertwined eternally in Oneness that cannot be separated into blocks or bits of God: "I and the Father are One!" (John 10:30)
No one can say Jesus is Lord, if not by the Holy Spirit! (1 Corinthians 12:3--paraphrased)
|16||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152205|
So you're saying that there's a number of people who God has predestined to be Saved by Christ and then there's a number that, even if they were born of believers, would perish no matter what they did?
And if this is your theology, do you then cast off the Old Testament with all of God's revelations?
|17||Does a person who never hears about Jesu||Rom 2:14||JCrichton||152141|
If I get you correctly... no one unless the Gospel is preached to them can get to know God?
And from the post (151940) cited I gathered that all are sinners will die according to their sins... and only those who believe in Christ will be save according to God's mercy... so there's a limitation to God?... I mean according to the material presented, a death mute who lives in the wilderness of say Peru, Latin America, will surely die because God is not able to teach his/her spirit about Jesus...
The fact is that God's Spirit saves! It is He whom Jesus sent from the Father... and there's nothing that can keep the Holy Spirit from teaching a human heart, mind and sprit!
I live in one of the wealthiest nations in the world... perhaps the greatest producer/disseminator of the Bible in the world, and in spite of that catchy phrase on the currency... many boast of not only not believing but defying God!
Surely, these people have rejected the Holy Spirit... but even them are wanted by God for He desires that none shall perish!
Should we be more concern with the fate of a fictitious character or the reality our individual/collective failure to bring Christ to the world through personal witnessing (love one another...) ...part of our Christian obligation is to pray that the message of Christ is brought to all men (including those instances when some may be ignorant of Christ).
|18||God being lonely?||Gen 1:1||JCrichton||151955|
I understand whay you are saying... sometimes I wonder how Christians define "humble obedience," "serve one another," and "to live is Christ and to die is Christ..."
When we speak, we are coming together, in Christ... to humble ourselves to God means to humble ourselves as representatives of Christ... so that 24/7 applies all of the times...
We can better serve Christ if we adopt the Sermon on the Mount to our personal life and instead of being defensive when questioned or not found clear enough, we must surrender pride and ego to the Lord, and seek to be "peace makers" as this would demonstrate that we are children of God!
If none of the above works... whenever facing a questionable issue we should take the opportunity to enhance our communication skills and our personal knowledge (as we analyze and restudy the issue)...
I always welcome the opportunity to come into the Lord's accord with my brethren... my joy is complete when Christian come together in Him!
|19||God being lonely?||Gen 1:1||JCrichton||151806|
|"Lonely? Only in the sence that deep inside we, humanity, long for His companionship!"
Since you are the second person that has understood such terminalogy from the words above (though made as a contrasting thought to Gods Omnipotence--asserted at the beginning of the post, second paragraph), I can only conclude that I must be more basic when expressing my thoughts...
What I was attempting to convey is that only our projection of our own feelings are being ascribed to God, hence the seeming loneliness of God--seeming loneliness: meaning that because we are missing something within our being, we tend to believe that God may be subjected to the same temperaments and conditioning as His creation!
...I cannot emphasize this more vigorously than as I said before: God is Omnipetent, Omniscient and Omnipresent! ...please accept my most humble apologies, if you have misunderstood the final thought on my previous post!
|20||God being lonely?||Gen 1:1||JCrichton||151803|
Because we yearn for that which we are missing, we can come to believe that it is a reciprocal feeling... however it is not!
If you notice my first expressions about God: "God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent..." anyone reading it would have to understand that in such a being there's no loneliness...
Yet, we are creatures of habit and of feelings... sometimes projecting our failures/inadequacies on others and on things and animals...
We have a tendency to think that if we feel something the object of that "feeling" is caught in the wake of our feelings... projecting loneliness, as well as other human traits, on to God is an error caused by those who seek to measure God in human terms and condition--yet His Ways are above our ways as high as Heaven is from earth... we can never equate God (lessening Him) to us/our "feelings."
If you have read from my post something other than what I have attempted to convey to the originator of this thread, I apologize for not being clear enough...
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